For 8 straight yrs,M. Tinsley ran 48 in 400h but never made US team, last yr he added distance runs & won Olympic silver

Charlie Freak wrote:

Sprinting , golf and darts wrote:

Sprinters are too lazy to understand that 20 minutes of jogging isn't even a warmup for a runner, let alone a workout. They lounge around, do a few starts, lounge around, then go home. There is not a sprinter in history who could do a 12 x 400 workout with a good miler. I'd be surprised if 5% of world class sprinters could do the warmup for a 12 x 400 without puking.

If you weren't a slow a** distance runner, you could "lounge around" some and then go home (which is total bullsh*t, btw. Check out a Clyde Hart 200/400 season of workouts from beginning to end, including the weight work).

Fact is, you're a miler because you can't run 100m in under 11, 200m in under 22 or 400 in under 50, therefore you must do 12x400 workouts in 1:10 (or slower) and 12 mile runs.

Sucks to be slow, eh?

I guess if you were a tough distance runner you could just do an easy ten and then go home, instead of those Clyde Hart 200/400 workouts and going to the weightroom.

Charlie

Fact is, you're a miler because you can't run 100m in under 11, 200m in under 22 or 400 in under 50, therefore you must do 12x400 workouts in 1:10 (or slower) and 12 mile runs.

Sucks to be slow, eh?

Yeah, I did 70s when I was 13, and don't think that a sprinter in the world can do 12 x 400 in 70. Shiftless and lazy describes every sprinter.

Tebowing in texas wrote:

Well, I can run a 400 under 50, and sprinters are lazy. Not one could hang a 4x 400 in 55 with a minutes rest. Should be easy for someone as fast as a sprinter to do slowass 55s. But the two things lacking are guts and the willingness to work. Face facts. Sucks to be lazy and gutless, eh?

Settle down, son. I'm not a sprinter, nor am I lazy or gutless. If you can run under 50, I'm guessing you're a young guy. If so, I'm pretty sure I've done dozens more 12x400/6x1 mile workouts and plenty more 12 milers than you have.

I just can't tolerate the ignorance/arrogance of the insecure distance runners who trash the work that sprinters do. Sprinters (100-200) simply do not train like distance runners and they shouldn't. You can say they're lazy, but if they trained like distance runners it would hurt their performance. It's a benefit of being born fast.

That said, I agree with others on this thread that 400m/400H runners can benefit greatly from some aerobic work, i.e., long tempo repeats like 800s, tempo runs, etc.

I believe thats helpful for his event, but lets get real. He didn't pr until his last final peak race and only by .11. His old pr was run in a semi winning going 48.02. It mostly comes down to him stepping up his game in an Olympic year.

He did a perfect job peaking and ran the race of his life at the right time. Add that to his comp being lamer than we would have hoped and he gets a top lane. If our guys were on their game he would have had a worse lane and probably not pr'd or medaled. Jackson and clement had let down Olympics. Clement let down few years really.

Sprinting , golf and darts wrote:

Sprinters are too lazy to understand that 20 minutes of jogging isn't even a warmup for a runner, let alone a workout. They lounge around, do a few starts, lounge around, then go home. There is not a sprinter in history who could do a 12 x 400 workout with a good miler. I'd be surprised if 5% of world class sprinters could do the warmup for a 12 x 400 without puking.

Tebowing in texas wrote:

Well, I can run a 400 under 50, and sprinters are lazy. Not one could hang a 4x 400 in 55 with a minutes rest. Should be easy for someone as fast as a sprinter to do slowass 55s. But the two things lacking are guts and the willingness to work. Face facts. Sucks to be lazy and gutless, eh?

I've never read so much stupidness in my life... Go run all the volume you want, intensity is where the real pain is, and nothing is more intense than 400m workouts.

Here's an article about "lazy" David Oliver:

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_9803701

Scroll down about one third of the article to find his first workout with Brooks Johnson. He did 9 x 300 and puked a lot.

Borzov and Dennis Mitchell did fairly high volumes of sprinting with short rests. Also Borzov did repeat 800s. Here is Borzov on his own training:

http://speedendurance.com/2009/01/12/valeri-borzov-training-procedures-in-sprinting/

Doped or not, have fun doing Borzov's or David Oliver's workout.

For the record, Marita Koch did 10X400 in 65-70 with short rest. She did this as BASE TRAINING, before the real training starts. I've done the same kind of workout at the same period. In my case it was 12X400 with 60 sec in 66-68, right out of Johnny Mac's seminar notes.

The problem with a sprinter doing these types of workouts is they're not fast enough. This is jogging to a pure sprinter. Most sprinters these days in the fall are doing 3-6 X 300 in 37-38 as intensive tempo in 3 minutes or so.

One of Clyde Hart's 400m workouts is 4X350 in 49 with 5 min rest PLUS 8X100 fast hill runs PLUS 2X200 in 30 with 30 sec rest. Oh, and by the way, the day before that, they do 6X200 in 26 with 3 min.

Not only are these people slow, weak, lazy, and not willing to work very hard, they also don't know what the hell they're talking about. This ignorance goes all the way to the OP, which is letsrun.com thinking they actually know something. 30 minute runs for 400 meter and 400h training is not exactly unusual. Many coaches have this, including both Hart and Kersee, among many others. Clyde Hart encourages athletes to do 20 min jogs twice a week in the fall.

coach d wrote:

One of Clyde Hart's 400m workouts is 4X350 in 49 with 5 min rest PLUS 8X100 fast hill runs PLUS 2X200 in 30 with 30 sec rest. Oh, and by the way, the day before that, they do 6X200 in 26 with 3 min.

The problem, coach d, is that these distance nerds see the number 4x(anything under a mile) and automatically think "lazy a** workout". Never mind that most would be hurting after ONE 350 in 49 seconds.

Again, for the record, I am a distance runner and have never raced anything under a mile. But I'm not so stupid to think sprinters don't work. I've coached every event in T&F (HS) except pole vault (jumps, throws, sprints, distance) and I've had fast twitch athletes do the exact kind of workouts you outlined. I know how hard they work.

You kids are out of your freakin minds if you think just because 1 athlete decided to add a 30 minute jog and 800 repeats to his training that the 400 is anything but a sprint. For crying out loud, the 800 is a freakin sprint! Whenever anybody tries to throw out the percentages a race is aerobic/anaerobic, I know right away they're knowledge is limited to what they read in the internet, and they are clueless.

When you get to USATF Level 2 and above or its equivalent, then talk about this.

Holy Mother, only on lets run would distance zealots try to argue for distance training for the 400 or 400h.

And please, never ever mention Clyde Hart and Michael Johnson as your examples. Michael Johnson could run 10 flat for the 100. He was a freakin sprinter, not matter what you think.

Go read some more Lydiard and stay slow.

Scientific based coach wrote:

You kids are out of your freakin minds if you think just because 1 athlete decided to add a 30 minute jog and 800 repeats to his training that the 400 is anything but a sprint. For crying out loud, the 800 is a freakin sprint! Whenever anybody tries to throw out the percentages a race is aerobic/anaerobic, I know right away they're knowledge is limited to what they read in the internet, and they are clueless.

When you get to USATF Level 2 and above or its equivalent, then talk about this.

Holy Mother, only on lets run would distance zealots try to argue for distance training for the 400 or 400h.

And please, never ever mention Clyde Hart and Michael Johnson as your examples. Michael Johnson could run 10 flat for the 100. He was a freakin sprinter, not matter what you think.

Go read some more Lydiard and stay slow.

Lydiard? The coach who threw his distance guys into sprint races, promoted hill sprints, etc? 22-mile long runs (at 6:00 pace for Snell et al, by the way) for middle distance runners worked well too. I'll take that any day over some guy credentialed by the organization that promoted the "less is more" pseudoscientific crap that made US distance running suck for a generation. Some guy who doesn't know what he condemns, either.

Lydiard? The coach who threw his distance guys into sprint races, promoted hill sprints, etc? 22-mile long runs (at 6:00 pace for Snell et al, by the way) for middle distance runners worked well too. I'll take that any day over some guy credentialed by the organization that promoted the "less is more" pseudoscientific crap that made US distance running suck for a generation. Some guy who doesn't know what he condemns, either.[/quote]

Do you know why 22-mile long runs worked well or do just want to blindly hold to distance dogma?

Nice made up accusation there, but the 8 is still a sprint.

Lol, what a waste.

Scientific based coach wrote:

Lydiard? The coach who threw his distance guys into sprint races, promoted hill sprints, etc? 22-mile long runs (at 6:00 pace for Snell et al, by the way) for middle distance runners worked well too. I'll take that any day over some guy credentialed by the organization that promoted the "less is more" pseudoscientific crap that made US distance running suck for a generation. Some guy who doesn't know what he condemns, either.

Do you know why 22-mile long runs worked well or do just want to blindly hold to distance dogma?

Nice made up accusation there, but the 8 is still a sprint.

Lol, what a waste.[/quote]

I don't need to know the physiology (and no matter what level of detail I cited, you'd say it wasn't enough) to know that the proof is in the medals. 3x Olympic Gold for Snell, plus more Olympic medals for others from one little corner of New Zealand. Now there are other ways to skin the middle-distance cat; Coe won 2x Olympic Silver, 2x Olympic Gold. But running long doesn't make you slow, not running fast makes you slow. And Lydiard most certainly had his guys run fast.

And by what reasonable definition of a sprint is the 800 one?

Go read some more Lydiard and stay slow.

Are you on drugs?? What makes you think Lydiard advocated slow running? He absolutely did not!!

Jet Pep wrote:

But newer studies with better measurement techniques show the event is closer to 44%aerobic/56% anaerobic.

Scott Simmons for years has been saying it's 50-50 for 400. If more HS 400 runners ran distances they would improve so much.

Maybe Lydiard really knew what he was talking about. Imagine that!!