El G, Lagat, and our sports "Tour de France" era

Not exactly, it's more of factual approach, but i applaud your critical thinking and pulling of the the race card. There are in fact "black people" who fall under the US runners category and plenty more who would classify as western athletes who are submitted to out of competition testing and who also may or may not cheat. Furthermore, i never stated that the white man or American doesn't cheat- i simply stated that it is easier for them to get caught based on our testing policies-therefore I personally don't know how they could do it.

The simple fact is, there is one country that produced 75+% of major marathon winners over the past 5 years. That same country didn't have out of competition testing.

oheo wrote:

That same country didn't have out of competition testing.

Really? So what did John Ngugi get suspended for in 1993?

Ngugi got suspended becuase the IAAF, IOC and WADA did not even bother to notify the 3rd world about out-of-competition testing and a couple of jealous europeans were not happy that someone from the 3rd world was winning in a sport they used to dominate. So what do they do? They order an out-of-competition drug test on him. The guy shows up at Ngugi's home demanding a urine sample and John thinks they are looking to use that against him so he refuses to give it to them.

This highlights the european mentality very well and this is part of why the 90s were dominated entirely by the Africans.

Jeff Wigand wrote:

oheo wrote:

That same country didn't have out of competition testing.

Really? So what did John Ngugi get suspended for in 1993?

http://www.itnsource.com/shotlist//RTV/1989/03/28/603060002/?s=

It's dated 1989 and is nearly proof that he was only requested to give an out of competition sample once in his career, only after winning OG...

I'm more inclined to trust this article.

"Blood-testing has not been possible in east Africa because of the remoteness of training bases."

oheo wrote:

Jeff Wigand wrote:

Really? So what did John Ngugi get suspended for in 1993?

http://www.itnsource.com/shotlist//RTV/1989/03/28/603060002/?s=

It's dated 1989 and is nearly proof that he was only requested to give an out of competition sample once in his career, only after winning OG...

I'm more inclined to trust this article.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/athletics/21771213

"Blood-testing has not been possible in east Africa because of the remoteness of training bases."

You seem to be unaware of the fact that the IAAF only instituted random, out-of-competition testing after the 1988 Summer Olympics.

How's the New York Times for you?

23 February 1993

Faces 4-Year Suspension

While the four Kenyans were in New York, news back home served as a reminder that this sport can be a legal morass anywhere. John Ngugi, a five-time world cross country champion, faced a four-year suspension for failure to submit to a random out-of-competition drug test.

John Whetton, a physician with the International Amateur Athletic Federation, had surprised Ngugi at his farm in Central Kenya. Ngugi had sent Whetton, and several other visitors, on their way.

"How could I allow strangers to come to my house and demand that they test me?" Ngugi said.

****

This may also be news for you, but most out-of-competition tests are not blood tests. Urine tests are far easier to administer and constitute most of the testing that goes on. I'm all for more blood testing, and this new effort in East Africa is great, but don't conflate "first out of competition blood tests" with "first out of competition tests."

This may also be news for you, but most out-of-competition tests are not blood tests. Urine tests are far easier to administer and constitute most of the testing that goes on. I'm all for more blood testing, and this new effort in East Africa is great, but don't conflate "first out of competition blood tests" with "first out of competition tests."

So you're confirming that there was no EFFECTIVE out of comp test for EPO in Africa until this year?

From the Journal of Applied Physiology, Regarding Urine tests: "By injecting microdoses of rHuEpo, the window of detection can be reduced to as little as 12–18 h"

The only effective test is the blood test because "it shows the “footprints” of drug use". That has not been available, as stated by you. Granted, normally, American athletes are only subjected to urine tests but blood tests did exist in the country and were administered.

tse wrote:

In reality, the WR is 12:37. No one has a shot at any of the WR,NR,or age records. Farah runs a 12:44 in a paced race, a great time, but he is still 7 seconds off the record. What's the point. Especially in an Olympic year when he can focus completely on an achievable goal - the OG double. While elite runners probably have some idea of their legacy, I doubt most care how they stack up one for one with prior runners. Farah doubled because he could. Doesn't go after records because he can't.

Another interesting point. It kind of looks like drugs fueled a record "bubble" that popped in the Balco/TDF fallout. Again just a hypo

Track and field, like any sport, is driven by money. During the "Epo Era," it was easy to dope. The dope brought WRs which carried monetary incentives. The dope brought ridiculous Golden League performances. Nowadays, the drugs are more sophisticated, because the testing is. Of course, nowadays they 'microdose.' During the El G times, those guys 'macrodosed.' Back then a lot of those guys were doin EPO and 'stacking' steroids (things like nandrolone). Morceli was one of the first to really show the amazing effects of EPO. It was egregious.

Watching those old races, everybody played the game. They'd all run amazing times, led by El G, and then they'd hug and kiss El G like he was a god. They all knew each other was doped, and there was a sort of elation in not only unlocking such unworldly performances from within themselves, but in being graced by a runner the world might never see again.

Victor Conte speaks of this concept of "hyper responders," people who gain a lot more from PEDs than others, even if all other factors are equal. Perhaps, El G was a hyper-responder, even though others were more naturally gifted. Perhaps he was a hyper responder and also the most naturally gifted; perhaps he was the most gifted and not a hyper responder. This is why it's difficult to say, "they were all doped, he was the best. Therefore, he's the best, dope or no dope."

The whole issue is very convoluted

The more i read your rant on ksksksk or whatever his name may be the more I'm beginning to think you are just a troll...it's pretty obvious what he is saying and is valid you're just being a dick...

"evidence" against el g:

--WRs that haven't been approached

--was the best in a notorious era

--many countrymen busted

--superhuman recovery

--trained in relative isolation, surrounded by his contingency

--retired (rather) abruptly

--a physiognomy indicative of HGH use (his face)

--the prize of the Prince (well-protected)

What I believe:

Yes, El G had EPO coursing through his veins. I don't consider what he did immoral. He wasn't stealing money from anybody because all the best were on something anyway. Those who weren't, wouldn't have been all that good even with the juice.

We've come too far to not approach 3:26. Nobody takes a shot because everybody knows there isn't a chance. It's simpler than we're making it. Maybe if we all pressed WADA to retrotest his samples...

hahaha that would never work!

It's late and haven't got time to give a detailed response, but yes, I basically agree with all you're saying.

Farah ran the double in London because he could and because he wanted to establish himself as the best in the world currently, which on balance he is. He has no chance in being the best ever as he will not get near the world records, which have been put out of reach of any of the current crop of elites.

finfer wrote:

Yes, El G had EPO coursing through his veins. I don't consider what he did immoral. He wasn't stealing money from anybody because all the best were on something anyway. Those who weren't, wouldn't have been all that good even with the juice.

We've come too far to not approach 3:26. Nobody takes a shot because everybody knows there isn't a chance. It's simpler than we're making it. Maybe if we all pressed WADA to retrotest his samples...

hahaha that would never work![/quote]

All of the people who knowingly doped were taking very immoral and unfair action. Not everybody was on the juice. Kevin Sullivan for one was one of the good guys who had a huge amount of talent, and ran 3.31, and finished 5th in the Olympics. I am certain his career was affected by the negatives of the rife doping. Had he been in the mix for victories, and not 5 seconds back, he would have run times like we saw from Cram or Coe. Sullivan was super talented, but ran right in the middle of the worst doping period of our sport.

Billy Pilgrim wrote:

Look at the talent of someone like Rudisha. 1:49 as a teenager at altitude in his first 800m race. An improvement of 8 seconds really doesn't seem all that surprising.

Ditto say Bolt - 20.6 or so as a skinny 15yo.

Here's another theory.

In most western countries, the guys doing middle distance are the ones who aren't fast enough to make it over say 200-400. This happens from a youngish age.

In East Africa, everyone runs middle (or long) distance. No one does sprints seriously. So the best East African sprinters all run middle distance.

That's the 1st part of the theory. Here's the 2nd.

Those who win those middle distance races in East Africa are those who would otherwise be doing sprints. The fastest win. And I mean the fastest over 200. They all do the same training anyway, so what else determines it?

So perhaps part of the reason why East Africa beats developed western nations over 800 is that culturally everyone does middle distances, including the top sprinters. And in the end, the fastest runners win.

If Rudisha was a white English or American guy, he'd be running 400s, and doing it very competitively (at around 45.0). But because he's East African, he uses that extreme 400 speed (not to mention the massive stride) to even greater benefit in the 800. Grab a top white 400 runner, one with a reasobaly lean build and a longish stride, who can handle some mileage. Turn them into an 800 runner and they'll be better than they were over 400.

I can't say for sure whether Rudisha's doping or not, but the fact is his stride and 400 speed set him apart. His times are believable for a runner like him.

Billy Pilgrim wrote:

Agree that Rudisha provides a good argument against the assumption that everyone from the 90's was doping,

Or maybe 800 is not only the most difficult distance to race but also the most difficult to prepare with doping. Balancing EPO vs. steroids. IDK.

I think we tend to trust the 'eye test' for guys like Bolt and Rudisha simply because they are physical anomalies. Rudisha is really a big guy, with a body that just looks like it is perfectly suited for the 800. Not to mention his early display of raw ability. Likewise, Bolt is also larger than all his competitors and given that his back and form issues have been greatly improved, and given his early display of raw ability, we are more inclined to believe his performances are 'legit.'

Of course, we begin to bring in talk of a Jamaican doping regimen and skepticism will appear, as it should...

It's a shame that the PED taint makes us doubt some of the most freakish natural athletes our planet will ever see. I guess it's par for the course though

Or maybe 800 is not only the most difficult distance to race but also the most difficult to prepare with doping. Balancing EPO vs. steroids. IDK.

One could make that argument, although I'm not really sure why it would be true. How would you explain the marathon now versus 1990's? Seems like some distances were better then, some now. Hard to explain with doping patterns.

oheo wrote:

So you're confirming that there was no EFFECTIVE out of comp test for EPO in Africa until this year?

And YOU are confirming that were wrong when you stated that "one country (Kenya) didn't have out of competition testing" for the last 5 years?? Actually, I missed that part where you wrote: "I stand corrected." I only see the part where you moved the goalposts of what constitutes "out of comp testing".

And by the way, here is another correlation to consider:

Two countries (one region) have dominated the sport of distance running for the past quarter century (men and women) like no other region has in the HISTORY of the sport. This same region is the only region on the planet (that takes the sport of distance running seriously) where the athletes are offspring of a people who were born, lived, and run for survival, transportation, and sport at high altitude for aeons (and who therefore are ONLY people whose blood is as fully as oxygenated at altitude as westerners is at sea level).

Just another correlation to consider.

Fussed wrote:

All of the people who knowingly doped were taking very immoral and unfair action. Not everybody was on the juice. Kevin Sullivan for one was one of the good guys who had a huge amount of talent, and ran 3.31, and finished 5th in the Olympics. I am certain his career was affected by the negatives of the rife doping. Had he been in the mix for victories, and not 5 seconds back, he would have run times like we saw from Cram or Coe. Sullivan was super talented, but ran right in the middle of the worst doping period of our sport.

Really? Worse than, say, the E. Europeans of the 70s and 80s? Nonsense.

So, Komen doped because he had a short career, and El G and Geb doped because they had long careers? Lagat doped thru the undetectable era, and his amazing "vintage" performances today (in a very "detectable" era) prove that? El G was "protected", yet many of his training partners were busted? El G finally won 2 OG medals in his 3rd attempt, a span of 8 years, and his retirement after evenually achieving this success is somehow suspicious? That actually makes sense to you?

So many people here spend endless hours writing about how much faster than their actual pb's their favorite runners/idols could've ran (Seb, Ryun, et al), then spend the rest of their time writing about how anyone else who actually did run faster times must've been doping.

It's comical.

PS - Alan Webb runs a 3:53+ mile as a high schooler, and you seriously think 3:43+ could only be achieved by the best miler in the world on EPO?