Brooks ST Racer
Brooks Ravenna
Asics GT 2060
Brooks ST Racer
Brooks Ravenna
Asics GT 2060
How do you tell the difference between "pronation" and "over-pronantion"?
jorvack wrote:
I broke my ankle and it never healed right so I overpronate more than normal. I have found the brooks racer st the winning choice. Its light, low to the ground, and posted.
Your new overpronation could be due to poor ankle mobility caused by the break and never fully rehabing the ankle. Make sure you do soft tissue work on the calf then do some ankle mobility work.
This is a great video. He knows his stuff. Nevermind the Dragon Shirt :/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZYo1gLFv_cMy foot sometimes strikes my calf when I am running. I never realised it meant I overpronate, any gait analysis I have had done shows that I am neutral.
What exactly does the foot striking the calf occasionally mean?
Twice per week, after a run where you still feel decent, do a handful of sprints up a hill for less than 10 seconds with a full rest between each. Your body will have to focus all its energy on forward motion doing these, you will run with halfway decent form, and a few months from now you won't run like a headless chicken.
Shoes are a part of it, but not the whole story.
Bluejayxcrunner wrote:
Some people on here are ridiculous.
I also work at a running store, and depending on the intensity of your overpronation, I'd agree with the Brooks Adrenaline.
Other shoes to consider would be the Mizuno Inspire, Nike Structure Triax, Reebok Road Supreme...just to name a few!
You work in a running store? That's the problem. You believe the hype about motion control.
lucKY2b wrote:
I laugh at the guys saying overpronation is OK. Almost by its very definition, OVERpronation is not good. We all pronate, that is good and natural. Some pronate more than others and their bodies can handle it; other's, not so much. Not every locomotion-system will self-correct and work effectively without some foot support, just as not all eyes will self-correct without glasses. Look at how much variation there is in human body shape and size, it just can't be that *every* human being runs most effectively without shoes. I just don't buy it. Majority, perhaps...but everyone??? No way. I say give the guy a break.
I'll second the shoe guys' choices...but recognize that the Brooks Beast is a pretty hefty load to carry.
Having said all that, however, I do believe that you should be running with as little support in your shoe as you can get away with. You should be looking into why you overpronate, and work on exercises that will help to strengthen those areas. It maybe that you can work your way away from pronation control shoes at some point. Who knows.
Yes everyone has different biomechanics, but the word overpronation is misleading, it sounds like a biomechanical fault. Who says the foot rolling far inwards is a biomechanical fault? Tell that to Haile Gebreselassie, have you seen how far his feet roll inwards when he races?
Sorry if it's been said already but I don't think so.
There is no evidence that shoes can correct over pronation. You just overpronate inside the shoe.
J.O. wrote:
Yes everyone has different biomechanics, but the word overpronation is misleading, it sounds like a biomechanical fault. Who says the foot rolling far inwards is a biomechanical fault? Tell that to Haile Gebreselassie, have you seen how far his feet roll inwards when he races?
This has already been addressed. Some people pronate quite a bit and have no problems. Others pronate the same amount and have serious injury problems. People who have injury issues due to overpronation can find relief in shoes that help control that motion. Get it? Overpronation is a fault that causes problems in some people. Not everybody. Not nobody. To argue that there isn't a person on the planet who overpronates to the point that it can cause harm is foolish at best.
And that 'motion control' just slows you down, weakens your muscles and costs more money.
J.O. wrote:
Yes everyone has different biomechanics, but the word overpronation is misleading, it sounds like a biomechanical fault. Who says the foot rolling far inwards is a biomechanical fault? Tell that to Haile Gebreselassie, have you seen how far his feet roll inwards when he races?
I agree that the word overpronation is too narrowly focused on just the foot. As I said, different people can pronate different amounts and deal with it. Weakness in the foot, ankle, knee, hip, or spine, all cause problems in the gait. Perhaps a better way is to say that overpronation is a symptom where you are not strong enough in the hips to deal with the amount of pronation you have. So you either find a way to reduce the amount of pronation, or increase your core strength. If you've increased your core strength as much as you can, and your gait still exhibits problems associated with overpronation, then some kind of long-term external correction (ie-shoes/surgery) would be warranted. But in the mean time, rather than damage your legs by running incorrectly (ie-running with too much hip rotation) while you are strengthening your core, get pronation control shoes and ease out of them as your core gets stronger. I'm willing to venture, though, that not everyone can progress that far.
That's just my take; I'm sure there are other ways to approach (or interpret) the problem.
Well thaks for a rational discussion. Now how can we strengthen the musculature wearing overprotective shoes?
Avoiding injury is just common sense. You build up strength gradually.
J.O. wrote:
Well thaks for a rational discussion. Now how can we strengthen the musculature wearing overprotective shoes?
Avoiding injury is just common sense. You build up strength gradually.
There are exercises for strengthening one's feet (eg. toe curls, calf raises) that one can do. One should also devote some time each week to running in flats and doing technique drills barefoot (or in flats) on grass; how much of this can be done, depends on how weak one's feet are. How effective any of this is will depend upon what other kinds of musculo-skeletal ideosyncrasies one's feet might have; Morton's toe, for example, is a condition that is often associated with overpronation and may place limits, depending on severity, on how much you can improve without some extrenal intervention (so I've read.)
I think the key to any of this is patience and persistence, but also recognizing where your body has limitations.
I think some of the posters who are coming across as 'extreme' with their anti-motion-control perspective are on to something. I'm not going to say that they are fully correct but will instead suggest that you avoid the very heavy shoes out there.
In high school I was a *very* heavy runner but still had decent speed, 2:00 800m and under 16:20 on legit 5k courses. These are not great times for high school or otherwise but I think they're okay. I was told that I was an over-pronator. As my handle implies, I was then and still am 'overweight' on the BMI scale. Anyway after high school I started running more and now I continue to run more than 10 years later but less than my peak during college.
I tried the Brooks Beast at one point. No injuries. Then I tied some Asics motion control shoes, really liked something that I think was called the Gel-MC plus. Asics has some other good shoes that really control motion. I did the orthotics thing; all of it was advised by PT. I never got injured, and still have never had to not run due to injury.
Eventually I got pretty sick of the heavy shoes. I grabbed some DS Trainers and really liked those. They are motion control but (as some posters have already pointed out) their low heel is good for the 'bad' pronation because high heels are part of the problem, not solution. I'm guessing that you don't flail when racing in flats - why? Low heels and focus on good form are part of the solution.
Of course you can't race all of your runs so I recommend DS Trainers or similar shoes - low heels but with medial post. Still no injuries, and I love wearing the lighter shoes. Do some form work as suggested above - hard, intense hills are great for this. Good luck.
SomeActualData wrote:
I appreciate that you're trying to help, but I respectfully disagree. Basically, I want to do *better* than what is "normal and natural" for me by improving my times!
I respectfully disagree with you and agree with J.O.. Considering your username, maybe you'd appreciate "some actual data".
Lore of Running, 3rd edition (pg. 497):
"The softness of the midsole has no marked effect on landing forces during running (T.E. Clarke et al,1983b; Frederick,1986; Nigg et al., 1987). It seems that runners alter their gaits and muscle activation patterns (Komi et al., 1987) when running in harder shoes or when running barefoot. Thus, the degree of pronation is reduced when one runs barefoot (Frederick, 1986; L.S. Smith et al., 1986), a reduction due to changes in running patterns...."
"One problem with cushioning properties of the shoe is that the tendons and ligaments of the foot are designed to absorb shock when one runs barefoot (R.M. Alexander, 1987). Furthermore, these structures in the foot act act as highly efficient springs, converting as much as 93% of the energy they absorb on landing into elastic recoil at toe-off. Compared to these structures, the midsoles and outer soles of running shoes are relatively inefficient, because they convert only 40 to 50% of this energy back into elastic recoil (Alexander, 1987; Alexander & Bennett, 1989); the remainder of the energy heats up in the midsole."
The torsion of the foot in running. / (La torsion du pied lors de la course.)
Author(s): Stacoff, A.; Kaelin, X.; Stuessi, E.; Segesser, B. Source: International journal of sport biomechanics (Champaign, Ill.), Nov 1989: 5 (4). p. 375-389
Abstract: In the research of running shoes, excessive pronation is often related to various running injuries. Anatomically, pronation is a movement that occurs in more than one joint. Previous investigations that evaluated the pronation in running studied the movements of the lower leg and the rearfoot only. However, pronation could also be influenced by the movement of the forefoot and therefore depend on the torsional stiffness of the foot and of the shoe sole. This study investigated the relationship between the torsion and the pronation in running with a rearfoot touchdown and with a forefoot touchdown. The results show that, compared to running barefoot, running with a shoe decreases torsion and thereby increases pronation significantly for the forefoot and rearfoot touchdown conditions. Thus the reduction of torsional movement due to stiff shoe soles could well be a reason for running injuries caused by excessive pronation. It is concluded that modern running shoes could be designedto allow a certain torsional movement of the foot.
Why do you think you need pronation control? IMO, there needs to be some pronation in your stride.
I think we are wasting our time trying to provide useful helpful information. People are just too brainwashed about over protective shoes.
Well said.
40 years in the shoe biz. Over-pronation is bad , if you have ever watched a high speed slow motion analysis of an over pronated gait , not good.
Lots of good options by the footwear brands.
Very few and I mean very few can run with the new "barefoot" or lack of structure footwear and get away with it for very long.
We are six months into a study of minimalist footwear now scheduled for one year of data collection with 500 participants around the world in the study.
Non shoe company funded.
Out of the trees wrote:
Well said.
40 years in the shoe biz. Over-pronation is bad , if you have ever watched a high speed slow motion analysis of an over pronated gait , not good.
Lots of good options by the footwear brands.
Very few and I mean very few can run with the new "barefoot" or lack of structure footwear and get away with it for very long.
We are six months into a study of minimalist footwear now scheduled for one year of data collection with 500 participants around the world in the study.
Non shoe company funded.
Oh geez please learn something about biomechanics. Or better still watch a video of Gebreselassie.
Geb has had two or three surgeries on his achilles.