800m: Positive or negative splitting?

Confused 800 runner wrote:

As someone who is really close to breaking 2 (like 2:00.5) I've looked into different racing strategies. I feel that physically, I am capable of breaking 2 minutes right now, and my general strategy is even splitting (30x4 last race) with a strong kick to the finish. However, it seems that many professional 800m runners tend to positive split whereas for most of my races I tend to even/negative. I know it sounds foolish for me to compare my racing to that of a professional, but if I wanted to get the fastest time possible, what's the most effective strategy to employ?

Try it and see what happens. Go 57 and see how you feel.

Go by what works for you; not what the theory might tell you.

I was never able to break 2 running negative splits, even when my most recent positive split 800 was at 1:55...my coach told me to run a negative split because that was a tactic employed by the closest competitors in my state in high school and I only ran 2:01. Definitely go out in 57 or 58, maybe as fast as 56.

kartelite wrote:

I had run between 2:00 and 2:01 at least four times before breaking 2, always with a first lap around 59.x. Then once I went through in 61, kicked hard and finally broke 2. Take that FWIW.

Maybe you training progressed and you were fitter when you finally broke 2.

Coach432 wrote:

rudishaaaaa wrote:

Go with the negative splits if u see the trend of 800m WRs.

Look at the 800m section in this Science of sport article:

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2007/09/mens-800m-analysis-of-event-and-preview.html

If you read the article properly, it says to split positively, not neg.

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If I understand you correctly, you are saying this kid should run both laps evenly; if that is true, I have to question whether you are truely a coach. Perhaps you are a field, sprint or long distance coach becasue your 800m advice is lacking.

Most young athletes experience their first real breakthrough in the 800 by pushing as hard as they can, for long as they can. (Simple but true!) To run a fast 800m, you really have to make that first 400 hurt and continue to push around the curve and down the back stretch and put the last 200 in God's hands. If you are young and inexperienced, I would tell you to run a 600m time trial and that's your 800 race pace. The last 100 meters of an 800 should feel like you are being punched buy Mike Tyson, but at the same time, you are fighting back because you are excited and know you can't waste a single stride in your effort to get to the finish line under 2 minutes.

When you finish, you should feel tightness in 3 muscle groups, which will stay with you until you do a cool down and stretch, but you will have learnt a lesson in mental toughness that allow you to PR in other events as well. If you are a middle distance runner, you will probably get a pretty big mile PR in your next race after 800 PR because the 800 is the perfect event to teach you that you can push beyond fatigue.

This is obviously not the advice I would give an experienced runner, but with young guys you, have to keep it simple. A young athlete trying average sub-60 for 2 laps has to be treated like a long sprint, pacing is not a concept you should get into in a 2 lap event...by the time a kid figures out whether he is on pace or not, the race is over with. The 800 is a beast, it’s not a thinking man’s race, you can’t be intellectual about, you really have tell a kid to get out hard and fight for every stride and every second. Unless you are blessed with a lot of raw speed, you really should feel stressed the whole race.

Btw, I never make a big deal people’s opinions about things, especially on message boards, but we all have to be careful and speak with knowledge when giving advice to kids who will perhaps go out and do what they read on Letsrun.

Well those previous times were all run off very little speed (frequently we did 400's at 1:10, 35's for 200's) and now we're hitting the speed hard. I felt tired after running that 2:01, that's because I had about 60 minutes between running the 1600 and 800, so I was already slightly tired. I ran that terrible 2:03 rather relaxed, I didn't even kick that hard (enough to pass 9 people, but didn't compensate for the fact that I was boxed and should've moved earlier). At any rate, I'll try positive splitting Wednesday because I'm guaranteed a victory even if I don't break 2. I'd like to hit 1:57 before season ends now that I'm busting out a lot of speed workouts geared towards the 800 and I'm able to do more speed because we split it morning and afternoon but I trust my coach. I definitely have a lot more raw speed than I do endurance because my 1600 PR is only a 4:50, and I've been told that I should be at least capable of like a 4:39 mile.

ventolin^3 wrote:

the best answer to your question is to run the race in the way you feel most comfortable, as long as not huge disparity in splits

from purely physics point of view, even-pace is most efficient, but small differences in splits make virtually no difference, so you are better off ignoring any particular ordained strategy & running the way you like :

the formula for energy is to cube speed & multiply by distance : from this, these are "evened out" values for different splits

60.0/60.0 ->2'00

59.5/60.5 ->1'59.98

59.0/61.0 ->1'59.93

58.5/61.5 ->1'59.85

58.0/62.0 ->1'59.73

a 1 or 2s split differential ( most common ) offers only less than a tenth difference compared to even-splitting - trivial

in the end, you are better off running the way feel most comfortable & not arbitrarily follow a put-upon strategy

This is not a physics question, it is a biology question.

if the athlete is fit enough, it becomes a physics question :

for even pace : try

48.3/52.94 ->

1'40.81

ventolin^3 wrote:

if the athlete is fit enough, it becomes a physics question :

for even pace : try

48.3/52.94 ->

1'40.81

The fitter an athlete, the faster they will run. The faster they run, the more beneficial positive splits will be.

learn to read

+ve splits of +2s don't suggest an athlete even 0.1s faster than if they had run it even-pace - trivial

so they shoud run whatever is most comfortable splits for them, within reason

Well either you have it right or that Kenyan running 1-41

I didnt read all the long posts but your 800 lap time should be determined on your 400 time. All of you are just guessing and not using other distances ran to determine it. In a conditioned/veteran athletes you should go through at 400 time + 4 seconds......as a younger less experienced racer I would go 400 + 6 seconds.

What is your 400 time? That should be end of the thread.

i think it depends on the type (muscle fiber) of runner you are...

my p.r. for an 800: 1:52.21 was achieved with a huge negative split effort...leaders were at 52-3, while i trailed through at 58-9. i rarely ran this race (or even trained for it as i was a 1500/5k type), so the first lap was always very difficult for me at that pace--almost a shock to the system.

in fact, i ran two 1:52s the same exact way, but the above p.r. came when i began reeling in the field of runners after that first lap. i was always advised to make that 3rd 200m. the most important part of the race as it was the tendency for most runners to slow down (which makes a lot of sense since we see a lot of runners going for that positive split approach...) so anyway, in the field of about 15-20 runners, i picked off each runner one-by-one, and during the home stretch, i finally beat the final leader with 10 meters to-go, ultimately winning the race. it was such a rush passing every single runner in the race. 2 hours later, i won the 5k in about 15 flat...it was a long time ago (1984) at Weber State.

i'm sure my little tale doesn't help the OP one bit, but i find my negative split approach to be a rarity amongst the pure middle distance type of runner. i was certainly not the speedy type, as i only ran one 400 in my life for time. it was at the end of a duel meet in high school and i ran a relay split of 52.8 for the anchor leg; of course, that was after running a mile/880/2-mile leading up to it.

good luck with breaking the 2-minute barrier--go for the negative!!

Just run baby.

Get yourself in a race with faster people and try to win the M-F'er!!

I've seen a lot of guys (myself included) try to PR and choke because of the pressure. But when you forget about time and just focus on competing... you'll be surprised at how much TIME you can drop in a race.

Find some guy. Sit on his shoulder for 600m. Then say DEUCES and beat him to the finish line.

I ran sub 2 when I was in High School about 20 times. When I was on the verge like you my Jr. Year the key was just getting to the 600 around 1:27-1:28. When I heard that split I knew as long as I ran the last 200 strong I would def be under 2. If you dont break 2 this spring give up running, your a bitch.

laxmack117 wrote:

If you want to run to your potential in 800m, the way to do it is by dropping around a 1 to 1.5 second positive split. The reason I say this is because your body doesn't fully switch over to aerobic stage until 600m and by then you only have 200m left and you start kicking in all you got. If you try dropping negative splits or even splits, your not really taking full advantage of your anaerobic. With a race like the 800m, its to short for you to have to pay the price of having to deal with being overly tired from going out a little fast like the way you would if you ran that way in the mile.

For example. You could run 29.5+30+30+30=1:59.5 or you could run 28.5+29.5+31+30=1:59.

You are close...the answer is to positive split. Numerous research studies have indicated that for distances under a mile a positive split is best.

HOWEVER, your body does not "switch" between anaerobic and aerobic metabolism. Funny as I will be lecturing next week on race tactics in my undergrad exercise physiology.

when i ran my 1:52 PR, it was 54 then 57...for what it's worth.

Hey buddy, I had the same problem. I was stuck at 2:00 for over a year. What worked for me was to race like a 400 runner. Fly out the first 400 (55 or so), stay strong the next 300 and then kick well at the end. The first time I did that I ran 1:59. Then a week later 1:57. Week after that 1:59 (tactical race), and a week after that did 1:58. At regionals I tried running like a distance runner is "supposed to", going out in 57. I was really strong on the back stretch, then blew up like always down the last 100 and ran 2:00.3

Some very interesting answers here.

Nearly every good 800 in the history of the sport was run with positive splits. Telling someone to run whatever is most comfortable for them might be misleading as the 800 properly run is never comfortable in the least.

Take it out and hang on kid.

pandafloski wrote:

Fly out the first 400 (55 or so), stay strong the next 300 and then kick well at the end.

Ah, the tried and true strategy of "go out hard, push it hard in the middle of the race, then kick hard at the end."