100 mpw in singles or doubles. Which is better?

some more links.

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=3753403&page=3

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=2941473&page=0

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=1143599&page=0

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=2472389&page=0

Thank you.

I've done many weeks over 100mi

some on singles some on doubles

i'm in college

doing 100mi on singles is obviously tougher

ergo better for aerobic development, it doesn't need to be any more complicated than that

it is smarter however to do 100mi on doubles

unless you're great at handling the high miles

but in your case it sounds like doubles would be better

do them like 11/10/9 and 4/5

have a nice long run around 17 plus or minus

get like 4 or 5 doubles in

depending on what time in your training you are doing this you'll probably have 1 or two workouts or a workout and a race, or maybe no workouts at all. if you aren't working out don't be afraid to go moderately long one day other than your long run IF YOU FEEL OKAY

the more, the easier/safer

do the short runs at an easy pace. they're a shakeout run, don't attempt to squeeze a workout out of every run, people who do that usually wind up hurt

remember that you don't need to hammer your runs if it's your first time at 100, Weldon Johnson mentioned in his article "Why I Sucked In College" that a lot of people who get injured off of high mileage are just doing it too fast

Joe Peoples wrote:

remember long slow distance makes a long slow runner !!!!

Are you saying that long slow distance actually make you grow taller?

malmo wrote:

Singles are not better than doubles any time.

They're better for me. I work a lot and have a family and can't afford the overhead time for more than one run per day. I can comfortably run 85mpw in singles and actually prefer it (I tried doubles and always felt tired, no matter how easy I went).

I'm decently fast. Not Malmo fast, but pretty good training like this.

Thanks for the links malmo. I think I understand now. It was a lot of material but I enjoyed it all and gained a lot of information. The last few days I've done 4/9 doubles and I certainly feel much better during the second run. But like another poster said, I do feel a lot more tired in the morning. I guess I'll get used to it though.

I was in error when I assumed that a longer run would have more AEROBIC benefits vs. two shorter runs in a day. Aerobically speaking, it is correct that they two would be equal. Thanks for the discussion, I learned something.

Your morning runs might suck sometimes, but if it's a consistent thing make sure you're getting enough sleep. More training + less sleep = hurt you.

llllll wrote:

Your morning runs might suck sometimes, but if it's a consistent thing make sure you're getting enough sleep. More training + less sleep = hurt you.

Thank you. With working a lot too, it has been tougher to get to sleep earlier, so that is definitely a concern. I was running 13 miles/day anyways, but since I was "singling", I could sleep later obviously. Since I wasn't used to it I was sort of restless at night and couldn't fall asleep, but it has gotten better.

I would like to incorporate more doubling into my routine because quite honestly, I enjoy it. But like you say, sleep/rest is very important and that is definitely something I will have to monitor. Thanks for the discussion.

Is there any reason for feeling bad on the second run of the day while doubling? I think I get enough sleep... My early morning run feels great but I'm exhausted and feel terrible on the second one... even if i go easy

sleep is vital, but do not forget nutrition+hydration. As a poster previously mentioned about metabolisms on two runs a day, eating more will be nessecary, and eating "the right things" during the day will be essantial to good recovery. Make sure you warm up and cooldown well, do proper stretches etc. It could just be that you aren't used to doubles. HYDRATE HYDRATE HYDRATE

high school junior wrote:

Is there any reason for feeling bad on the second run of the day while doubling? I think I get enough sleep... My early morning run feels great but I'm exhausted and feel terrible on the second one... even if i go easy

[quote]Joe Peoples wrote:

dude you know what he meant, im just sick of those pound em out mileage whores, you gotta be smart, you gotta be willing to say no to that urge.. its hard, i know in college i was surrounded by people trying to push 80 mpw but honest, they didnt do any better for it, they pretty much all ended up hurt or tired. I was alway fresh. you can debate all you want, but the proof has been clear pretty much universally between all levels of competition, less is in fact more, and doubling DOES help more than singling. you do doubles you are more fresh and you hit the same amount in miles, boom, you are in there. you are going to be running fresh feeling good on race day, and more consistent. if you get anywhere near 100 or over in college you just flat out wont be as successful as you could have been if you were at 70s or 60s... it is a progressive over loading process the body must go through, if you are still young, and only 4-5 years into it, 60s or 70s is perfect, MAYBE after running there for like 10 years, you can get up to 80s, then when you are in your 30s and it is marathon time, you can start with the 100s. basically all the literature I have read has lead me to the same conclusion.[/quote

How did everyone let this one go?

I didn't, look at page 1 again.

yeah, but you were way too level headed about it. I was hoping for more vitriol

As in life, balance is the key.

Had to let it go. The guy obviously did not read as much literature as he states. Try any book by Authur Lydiard for starters.

Singles or Doubles?

Assuming you run 7 days per week, I think it's best to run once per day until your normal easy runs reach 60 minutes as I think the incremental benefit you get from a longer run outweight the benefits from a second run until you reach this point (60 minuytes). Once you have reached 60 minutes I suggest that adding incremental time in the form of a second run. Start by adding 2 second runs per week for a while, then bring that to 4 second runs per week and then finally 6 second runs per week.

Start your second runs at 20-25 minutes per run, keeping your main easy run at the 60 minutes. Once you have reached 6 secondary runs per week then you can once again begin adding more time to each run.

One of the reasons why secondary runs are so important is that they increase and help maintain the level of aerobic enzymes in your muscle cells (actually a similar effect can be seen at high altitude). The longer you have between runs the more your aerobic enzyme levels fall off. So by running more frequently you can buld-up and maintain a higher level of aerobic enyzmes which will help you run more efficently and effectively.

Long Runs?

Long runs are great for building up your aerobic endurance, the amount of glycogen your body can store, it's efficency in burning a higher portion of fat as a fuel, developing the capillary structure into the muscles used in running, and recruiting new muscle fibers (due to other primary fibers running low in glycogen).

I think long runs are important for every distance runner, but obviously more so for marathoners and other longer distance specialists.

Interestingly though, the larger the weekly mileage of the runner the less important long runs become because they are getting alot of the benefits I mentioned above by shear weekly mileage volume. Example: Frank Shorter rarely ran longer than 20-21 miles on his long runs, be ran 140 miles per week.

Flurb wrote:

They're better for me. I work a lot and have a family and can't afford the overhead time for more than one run per day. I can comfortably run 85mpw in singles and actually prefer it (I tried doubles and always felt tired, no matter how easy I went).

I'm decently fast. Not Malmo fast, but pretty good training like this.

Come on, you realize that the thread is not about optimal training given the fact that you really only have time to train once per day. It's about optimal training in general. And nobody is saying you can't be pretty good off 85 mpw on singles.

I know this thread is a few weeks old but I'm bring it back anyway. I like a good thread about doubles.

MPR,

Your post sounds very rational but your first paragraph doesn't seem to match your third paragraph. If the benefits of a seond run are as you listed, I have yet to see that in any kind of scientific papers, why wait until you are running 60 minutes to start doubles? Would you not want to start getting these benefits right away? I'm not questioning the benefits you listed, I honestly have no idea the physiological impact that doubles have on the body.

I have started doing doubles and have definitely seen the benefits. I do not wait until I reach a certain mile or time threshold before adding them to my training. If I want to get in shape for a race and run fast, I run doubles.