right....as The Man says, the magic is in the man.
I know an athlete that has been running for less than 1 year....total. a golfer before that so no big aerobic base from swimming, soccer, etc.
he finished top ten in state for xc and went 9:4x for 3200 in track. and did it on no more than 45 miles/week.
and is going to be running for a D1 school this fall.
This is a bit simplistic. If you want to see a more detailed running program, check out Joe Newton's "Coaching Cross Country Successfully" and you will find a detailed summer running program that easily puts your top runners over 100mpw by the end of the summer, but which provides a variety of training runs. But it is not the miles so much as it is quality practice and training, and the need to have the 'rents but into the regimen, which is not a problem at York (where vacations are a no no- if you are on the team, then you make all practices. Period. And this is a known factor, so parents don't argue this issue, which they cannot win anyway).
Yes, THAT is what ruined American distance running through the 90's, the fact that average high school kids weren't logging 100 mile weeks.
To Listen To Me: Now you listen to me......I don't believe you said that you are an actual high school coach, so I assume that you do not coach in the real world.
Your little mileage scheme would be ideal in a make believe world where EVERY kid is extremely motivated, EVERY kid is injury free and can handle that mileage, and NO ONE needs to work because everyone's parents have plenty of money. All of those must occur, plus you can't live in a climate with winter....dark until 7:30 am.....dark again at 4:30 pm. Not everyone has a treadmill or access to an indoor track. It can be quite dangerous running at night on streets narrowed by snow banks.....yes, it can be done, but it is dangerous.
However, it is not a make believe world. That scheme will only work for very, very few kids. When a high school coach happens to have one of those kids, they will recognize that fact, and work with them accordingly. Real coaches know that already, so they do not have to listen to you.
I'm a sophomore in highschool and i think that high mileage durring the summer is good. to be a distance runner you need alot more dedication than your star quater back, or basketball player. in distance running the only thing you can improve is your fitness level (umbrella term) while in other sports you can improve your skill, like shooting or throwing. so if you want to be a good cross country runner you need to be able to put in the hours to run the distance, you can't take a summer off and come back into the season hoping to go to state. though there are some people out there who can do that, the majority of the population would have to work to complete that goal. I also work durring the summer, and havn't had an injury while increasing my mileage (50). if you start low and work your way up injury is less common, im just saying that students can be that motivated and dedicated. don't say we can't, cause then we will.
Folks, greenliner just outlined a plan that will take all the fun and limit any development beyond HS. Unbelievable, vacations are a no no during the summer months, say what?
The quantity and quality of Yorks program is insane. But, look at the HS success, make yourself a legend at the expense of the kids.
35 mpw for an incoming freshman is really high. You've clearly never worked with young runners if you think this is realistic. I have a FEW freshmen running 35, but they're very talented and have years of soccer behind them. Many of my incoming freshmen are running 15-20 miles/week.
You also can't build up ad infinitum like you're trying to do. One week is not enough downtime. You need at least an easy month until you're quite experienced. When you return to running, you have to build up again, you can't just jump to a new mileage high.
most high school elite runners aren't even running 90 miles a week in their senior year. i remember an interview with chris derrick, luke puskedra, and colby low where they said they were running 70-80 mile per week. i know a 4:04 miler from 2 years ago that ran only 50 miles a week at his peak. every runner is different. there's no secret program that develops every runner well. otherwise, we would all be doing it. some need high mileage, some prefer to run low mileage at a quicker pace. some need more strength intervals, some need more speed intervals. it's the runner's responsibility to know his or her own body and the way it responds to different training routines.
"Also, how many high school freshman come into XC all worked up and worried about running in college, and will sacrifice everything just for that one goal? Maybe 2, 3 in the history of the world.
Well, I'm going into my freshman year, and it might be a little far out there, but I can fit into that category. I want to see if i can make it to be the best. And no, I'm not one of those kids who runs a 16min 5k in his freshman year, I'm aiming at low 19s.
I guess I'm quite special eh?
And how many York kids go on to be great runners in college? That's what I thought....can't name many.
It always amazes me in these debates that so many high school coaches come up with unlimited excuses and reasons why kids won't run, can't run that many miles, parents nix their plans, administrators, other sports and coaches dictate how their programs can realistically be implemented.
Kids play soccer, baseball, basketball, and participate in swimming, ice skating, and gymnastics year-round from the age of 5, but high school runners can't run if it interferes with their other extra-curricular activities, and their parents aren't your best buds, 100% behind your plan.
Whether the OP's plan is too much for the average high school kid may be more of a reflection on who makes up your teams, rather than what can make a young runner more successful. Do coaches from the sports above keep every straggler who shows up on the team and bend over backwards for them and their parents when they say they can't or won't follow their programs?
It sounds as though as many as 50% of coaches who respond to these type of threads treat high school cross country and track as recreational activities, citing participation and other various factors as the primary goals of the program, bending over backwards to keep everyone involved, no matter how the kid or parent feels they need to actually comply with the coach's rules, plans, decisions, etc. It's like listening to a bunch of people-pleasers who don't want to offend anyone, or step on any toes, while they are supposedly in charge of their own program. When you mention the word "development," these coaces jump on it like some evil Eastern European concept that can't work in the US.
These same coaches cite their own and their runners' success at the local, conference, and state level, and seem to believe that means they are fulfilling their duty, let the chips fall where they may beyond that. Meanwhile, we have all these kids in the US "participating" and competing at this supposed high level of success coaches have defined in high school, and why is it 20, 30, 40 plus years before guys like Webb, Rupp and Fernandez break American high school distance records?
Bottom line, the kids have between 4 (and maybe, hopefully) 8 years of serious training and competition, then they get a real job, sit behind a desk all day, get married, have kids, and wonder what could have been. Why not do your utmost, given your position, to maximize their potential when the opportunity exists, instead of contributing to their fears and doubts by coming up with excuses and reasons for not fulfilling a most valuable lesson: striving for excellence in any endeavor you undertake, especially one which you voluntarily choose to do? After all, no one is twisting their arms to join the team.
Listen To Me wrote:
The lack of dedication and understanding is why more kids are successful.
Huh?
obviously this training plan is not for an AVERAGE runner. I'm going to be really generous and say that the AVERAGE HIGH SCHOOL RUNNER runs 18:00 for 5k (that might sound slow but there are alot of kids who run like 30:00). We had kids in our program that ran 35 mpw for a summer and fall and couldn't break 18:30. those kids are about average and shouldn't have ever tried to build up to some 100mpw plan by their senior year.
however, there are those who are elite. this plan is for SOME (NOT ALL) of them. some 4:10 milers can run more than 40 mpw without getting injured. You don't have to be a German Fernandez, Colby Lowe, or even a footlocker finalist to follow this program and have it work for you, but this WILL NOT work for you if you are average.
I ran 4:08 for the mile in high school. 4:10 as a junior - felt I could have been faster in 12th grade - but won often, so it turned out ok. 15:20 5k in cross country and 9:24 two mile in track as a 9th grader - on about 25-30 miles a week. I was barely over a 100 pounds - hardly ready to run high mileage.
I was a 40/50 mile a week guy, but did run high quality - very little standing around or wasted time once training started. I grew at the end of 10th grade - not so sure high mileage was realistic during this period.
The one factor missing from both my high school and college days was not higher mileage per se, but long runs. In high school, I would have greatly benefited from a long run of 11-12 miles every 7-10 days, and in college, 15-17 miles. It was with aha! that I watched Wetmore take his team through the paces on an 18 or so mile run at altitude on Flocast, a key run for that squad (and it was not an everyday occurence).
I was never a high mileage guy - but certainly needed to run from time to time more long runs. I would think that is a better goal than pushing high school kids to 80 mpw - I could have done it if compelled to - but it would have been forced.
Exactly why is it again we should listen to you?
kevinb wrote:
right....as The Man says, the magic is in the man.
I know an athlete that has been running for less than 1 year....total. a golfer before that so no big aerobic base from swimming, soccer, etc.
he finished top ten in state for xc and went 9:4x for 3200 in track. and did it on no more than 45 miles/week.
and is going to be running for a D1 school this fall.
Congratulations, your state sucks.
Linear progressions are consistent in theory only. As in many other developmental plans (eg. human growth and development) individual development progresses in "spirals" and general ones at that. Do not expect any "straight-line" plans to be effective generally or for specific individuals. Of course such plans can appear to work for both cases, but then you can also roll a seven or an eleven on the dice fifty times consecutively, or not at all in fifty trials.
As in education across the board plans for masses of students are bound to fail, because each individual responds to individual schedules and stimuli. Just as in education, it seems to me, training and competition plans for aspiring athletes need to follow individual plans. I think great coaches are psychologists (not clinical, just natural), parents (not authorities, just guides), and real friends (not buddies.)
terps wrote:
Bottom line, the kids have between 4 (and maybe, hopefully) 8 years of serious training and competition, then they get a real job, sit behind a desk all day, get married, have kids, and wonder what could have been. .
I understand what you are saying.. I really do. BUT have you given any thought to the other way of seeing it. What about the kid that completely dedicated himself to track and XC then looks up one day and realizes he cheated himself out of a lot of other activites all for running?
yeah, all those other great activities like drugs, alcohol, and other illegal activities. wish i could have those years back
jackrunstrack wrote:
yeah, all those other great activities like drugs, alcohol, and other illegal activities. wish i could have those years back
I loved the 70s....I think.