Leg Extensions are bad because of the torque on the knee while lifting heavy weight.
A beginner is not going to have the strength to do much harm to the knee.
I'd much rather see a beginner start with 2-4 weeks on the leg extension than do poor squats or deadlifts.
I've never seen anyone get hurt doing leg extensions unless it is something they do obsessively. Ie: lots of body builders.
Alan
Hey bud, listen. It's simple. Do exercises associated with running. That's what I did. I ran pretty quick on a national, semi-professional level. I lifted a lot but I only did running related motions. I used a lot of weight but incorporated stability. All free weights.
For instance I would squat with 45 pound plate on a Bosu Ball. Or lunges with dumbells.
Just keep it simple. Remember these things:
- A lift should be a workout just as a track workout. (dont do it every day)
- Lifting should never compromise your miles. It should work as a complement not a supplement.
From the time I started running my secret to success always boiled down to 5 things. Double runs, consistent lifting, sleep, enjoyment, and the desire to improve. As long as I had those five things, I could run quick and continue to improve. I kept a checklist in my head and would check that off every once and a while. If something was missing I would make it my goal to get it back. My advice, find your five things and stick to them your whole career.
Just Me wrote:
Hey bud, listen. It's simple. Do exercises associated with running. That's what I did. I ran pretty quick on a national, semi-professional level. I lifted a lot but I only did running related motions. I used a lot of weight but incorporated stability. All free weights.
Bingo! Thanks for your support on this. The machines these others are touting do not replicate any runnng motion and are effectively useless (not to mention dangerous) for runners.
this is so wrong wrote:
Just Me wrote:Hey bud, listen. It's simple. Do exercises associated with running. That's what I did. I ran pretty quick on a national, semi-professional level. I lifted a lot but I only did running related motions. I used a lot of weight but incorporated stability. All free weights.
Bingo! Thanks for your support on this. The machines these others are touting do not replicate any runnng motion and are effectively useless (not to mention dangerous) for runners.
The OP is a beginner. If he had a weight coach he could get the benefit of all this wonderful wisdom. He's asking how he can work in weights and asking for some kind of a workout. Since he's asking on letsun we have to assume he doesn't have access to a coach to guide him. If he's doing it on his own, he needs to start with machines. They are the simplest for a beginner. If he gets access to a coach who can guide him through free weights and the proper technique, that would be best. But in his limited situation and his beginner status, machines are best. Hopefully he can progress beyond those.
Lifting will slow you down, not speed you up.
Lydiard is against any weight lifting.
Jack Daniels only supports weights for 800m runners
John Kellog is also against weight lifting.
runnerrat wrote:
The OP is a beginner. If he had a weight coach he could get the benefit of all this wonderful wisdom. He's asking how he can work in weights and asking for some kind of a workout. Since he's asking on letsun we have to assume he doesn't have access to a coach to guide him. If he's doing it on his own, he needs to start with machines. They are the simplest for a beginner. If he gets access to a coach who can guide him through free weights and the proper technique, that would be best. But in his limited situation and his beginner status, machines are best. Hopefully he can progress beyond those.
Nope. First of all, he is currently competing on a team. It is reasonable to assume he is being coached. Secondly, he should begin with body-weight exercises which are far more effective and safer than machines. Also, they are more accessible. My $0.02.
321go wrote:http://www.letsrun.com/forum/post.php?board=1&reply=2467430
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/post.php?board=1&reply=2467430Lifting will slow you down, not speed you up.
Lydiard is against any weight lifting.
Jack Daniels only supports weights for 800m runners
John Kellog is also against weight lifting.
Q: What do you think of weight lifting for distance runners? Is hill running better resistance training than weights?
A: When I was a national coach in Denmark, there was a place that was absolutely dead flat. There were no stadium or steps to run, either. In the situation like that, weight training is fine. In fact, I have included photos of weight training in one of my books. The problem with weight training is that if you're not careful, you can easily get muscle imbalance and that could lead you to injuries. On the other hand, by doing hills, you can use your own body weight as resistance and you can strengthen necessary muscles for running in a balanced way in the actual form of running. The thing is; you should apply resistance to activate your white muscle fibers at some point, be it hill training or weight training. It is best to have professional opinion when using weight training so you don't get muscle imbalance.
tell that to seb coe
"The thing is; you should apply resistance to activate your white muscle fibers at some point, be it hill training or weight training. It is best to have professional opinion when using weight training so you don't get muscle imbalance."
Yes! SOME kind of resistance training is greatly beneficial to runners.
Josh I would just like to reemphasize what I said to you earlier. Right now at the stage your career is in your running is exponentially more essential than your lifting. Focus on that
Zip wrote:
Josh I would just like to reemphasize what I said to you earlier. Right now at the stage your career is in your running is exponentially more essential than your lifting. Focus on that
Bully, you got the last word.
I'm not going to read this whole thread, but your answer is this:
Arms: Push ups, pull ups.
Core: Do something.
Legs: Lunges.
No amount of non-running exercise will on its own improve your times drastically. But, if you ever find yourself neck and neck with your arch rival in the 2 mile, you will be glad you can hold your form together better due to stronger muscles.
i always thought lifting was somewhat bullshit. so many other sprinters used it as a workout instead of putting in the time to do base running and tempo workouts. i lifted very sparingly and ended up in college splitting 45-high on the 4x4 and 46-low in the open.
Bingo
for what its worth wrote:
i always thought lifting was somewhat bullshit. so many other sprinters used it as a workout instead of putting in the time to do base running and tempo workouts. i lifted very sparingly and ended up in college splitting 45-high on the 4x4 and 46-low in the open.
The thread is about 1600/3200 running, not sprinting. Lifting has been proven effective in helping middle distance running.
Unholy Cumulus wrote:
I'm not going to read this whole thread, but your answer is this:
Arms: Push ups, pull ups.
Core: Do something.
Legs: Lunges.
No amount of non-running exercise will on its own improve your times drastically. But, if you ever find yourself neck and neck with your arch rival in the 2 mile, you will be glad you can hold your form together better due to stronger muscles.
Strength training and plyos has been proven to increase Vo2max and 5k race times. If I find the study abstract I'll let ya know...
Alan
Runningart2004 wrote:
Strength training and plyos has been proven to increase Vo2max and 5k race times. If I find the study abstract I'll let ya know...
Alan
There was a study done several years ago with the UNH women's xc team that associated approximately a 5% improvement in running economy with periodic strength training.
Running economy, yes! VO2max, no!
A 1988 study by Dr. R.C. Hickson and colleagues at the University of Illinois at Chicago investigated whether adding strength training to an endurance training program would improve endurance performance. The investigators had 8 well-trained cyclists and runners add weight-training to their exercise programs. The subjects performed 3-5 sets of 4 leg exercises, 3 times per week for 10 weeks. Leg strength increased by 27% for parallel squats, 37% for knee extension, and 25% for knee flexion, over the 10 weeks. The weightlifting, however, did not result in any change in the subjects' maximal oxygen consumption (VO2 max).
Short-term endurance was measured by having the subjects cycle and run as hard as possible for 4-8 minutes. When re-tested after weight-training, the subjects had increased their time to exhaustion by 11% during cycling and 13% during running. Similarly, the length of time that the subjects were able to cycle at 80% of VO2 max increased from 71 minutes before weight-training to 85 minutes after weight-training.
The effect of the weight-training on the subjects' running performances, however, were less clear-cut. Two of the 8 subjects were injured from the heavy-resistance training, and were unable to complete the post-weight-training 10 K run. Of the other 6 subjects, their 10 K times improved from an average of 42:27 before the weight-training to 41:43 after weight-training. While this improvement was not statistically significant, it does suggest that the weight-lifting had some positive impact on running performance.
A 1995 study, published in Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise, found similar results concerning VO2 max. Dr. John McCarthy and colleagues at the University of Wisconsin-Madison Biodynamics Laboratory, found no increase in peak VO2 with the addition of strength training to an endurance training program. In this study, sedentary adult males were divided into 3 groups. One group strength trained, a second group endurance trained, and a third "combined" group both strength and endurance trained. Peak VO2 on the cycle ergometer, increased by 18% in the endurance-trained group and by 16% in the combined group. Neither this study nor the University of Illinois study, therefore, found an increase in max VO2 or peak VO2 with the addition of strength training to an endurance-training program.
A 1994 study from the Department of Kinesiology at the University of New Hampshire, however, strongly supports weight-lifting for distance runners. Exercise physiologist Ron Johnston found improvements in running economy after a 10-week weight-training program. In this study, 12 trained female distance runners were split into groups for 10 weeks of training. The experimental (Run & Lift) group continued to run, and added a strength training regimen consisting of 14 exercises working the upper body, abdominals, and legs, 3 times per week. The control (Run) group just ran.
The Run & Lift group improved their upper body strength by 24% and leg strength by 34%. VO2 max and lactate threshold VO2 did not change in either group, which is consistent with the results of the studies already mentioned. The most interesting finding in the UNH study was that running economy improved significantly in the Run & Lift group, but did not change in the Run group. Running economy improved by over 2% at the 3 running speeds used in the study. Johnston explains, "Strength-training improves running economy either due to a reduction in wasted motion, or because stronger legs allow runners to rely more heavily on their more economical slow-twitch muscle fibers." Johnston is no idle observer of the sport, having won the 1994 Maine 50-miler.
That study only shows that lifting worked for some of the 8 people in the study. And these people are not exactly serious athletes either. 42 minutes for 10k? There are too many factors and lurking variables in a study like this, especially one this small.
Neither Lydiard nor Jack Daniels advocate lifting for long-distance athletes. Daniels does recommend it for middle distance runners.
Remember the principle of specificity.
Keep in mind, though, that Lydiard WAS a big advocate of running-specific plyometric exercises.
If you can lift without it interfering with your running then you should. You absolutly can not give me any reason why one shouldn't lift provided it doesn't interfere with their running.
Yes, the OP should run more, but if he has the time to lift and run more then why not? Provided again that it does not hurt his running.
Lift the day of a hard workout, preferably a few hours afterwards. Start out with only 1 day a week, the move up to twice a week.
To say that Lydiard or Daniels or Kellogg does not advocate lifting doesn't mean jack. Those are only three coaches. Lydiard coached in the 50s and 60s when few athletes lifted weights for fear of "getting tight". Neither of the other two have coached enough high caliber athletes (there is a difference between "advising" and "coaching") for their opinions on weight training to carry much weight.
Pat Porter: Adams State College, multi-time USA XC Champ, routinely lifted weights.
Steve Spence: Changed from the usual girly running weight circuit to a specific strength training program (3 sets of 10, etc) and won 3rd at the World Champs Marathon.
Geb: I've seen articles with pictures of him weight training.
Why is it that every other athlete on the planet who wants to get better will eventually start strength training but runners are still afraid to?
Alan