180 strides a minute

Well the use of capital letters has certainly put me in my place hasn't it. Can't argue with that.

I think that stride rate is a function of good mechanics. That is, if you have the right mechanics your stride rate will be fast. Form components that contribute to a fast stride rate include

-Foot strike under (and not in front of) the center of gravity (hips.)

-Dorsal flexion on impact which shortens ground contact time.

-High heel kick (knee high+) which shortens the lever and speeds up the forward swing of the leg.

Of course, there are other components of form that lead to the above, for example adaqute knee lift which contirbutes to a foot strike under the hips.

You can get fast turnover without the above, but you'll be shuffling.

As for the comment in a previous post that the runners of yesteryear didn't worry about turnover rate: I don't think elite runners ever need to worry about stride rate, they run naturally with a high stride rate thanks to good natural form.

I never said every athlete is way over 180, but rather I just provided a couple examples that are contrary. I do disagree, for the most part, with the notion that stride rates are roughly around 180 for shorter events, such as the 800 and 1500/mile. If El Guerrouj ran at 180 strides per minute during his WR 1500m run, he'd have a stride length of 7.96 feet per stride. That's one heck of a stride.

Well said ExOf1.

In answer to the original poster - if you're running at approx 180 strides (yes 178 does count...) in comfortable form then mechanically you likely have a fairly good basis.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to get an experienced coach to have a look at your style if, as your name suggests, you want to get faster. The stride rate will probably take care of itself as you strengthen and concentrate on volume and good form.

Anybody know what stride length would be expected if running at El G's 1500m WR pace? Presumably pretty long at that speed?

El G typically ran 200 strides per minute in 1500m races

Check out Lagat's turnover at the end of the WC 1500, all these guys are a spinning, but it looks to me like Lagat is spinning fastest. His feet are a blurring circle.

Biomehanic wrote:

it is patently absurd to think that a tall person with long legs should have the same stride length or rate as a short person with short legs.

Which patent number is that?

mlbfan24 wrote:

If El Guerrouj ran at 180 strides per minute during his WR 1500m run, he'd have a stride length of 7.96 feet per stride. That's one heck of a stride.

Even better, if Asafa Powell took 180 spm to run his 9.74 for 100 meters that would be:

29.22 strides in 9.74 seconds which gives us 3.42 meters per stride, or 11' 2.73" per stride.

In reality, in the attached clip I counted 44 steps for Asafa in the race. Note: the camera changes at about the 1/3 point so I may be off +/- 1-2. Using the 44 steps for 9.74 seconds we end up with 271 strides per minute.

I think the 180 spm mantra is for quality (fast aerobic) distance runs.

Did someone call me a troll?

Why

I just posted a question that i wanted an answer to and thought i might have got some intellectual responses.

There were some good answers so not all of you are likre that i know but if thats the welcome i get i may as well go elsewhere for such advice

Mensa Runner Guy wrote:

I think the 180 spm mantra is for quality (fast aerobic) distance runs.

I agree with Mensa Runner Guy.

In the NYT article on running economy (link in message board) there is the following paragraph on Daniel's 180 mantra:

"Still, there are a few tricks for novices, said Dr. Daniels. Most runners, he said, naturally fall into their most economical stride. But some bound along or, at the other extreme, take too many little steps. After studying hundreds of runners, Dr. Daniels discovered that taking 180 steps a minute made the most of energy expended."

The 180 spm is in reference to optimum running economy. For middle distance races this is not as much of an issue as it is for long distance. In the shorter races you are not trying to stay in aerobic territory so you are taking way more than 180 strides per minute.

Frame of Reference Guy wrote: The 180 spm is in reference to optimum running economy. For middle distance races this is not as much of an issue as it is for long distance. In the shorter races you are not trying to stay in aerobic territory so you are taking way more than 180 strides per minute.

Yes, shorter races = even faster stride rates. And slower paces - I've gotten a couple girlfriends started jogging in their late 30s, at paces starting as slow as ~14 minute miles - can still accommodate (and I think benefit from) the quicker stride rates. Yes, we're talking very short strides at these paces. But the chicks managed it, and so did I jogging with them. It's like running in place but moving, barely.

In addition to running economy, stride rate is also a big factor in impact force. Lower SPM -> airborne longer -> vaulting higher each stride -> more impact. To make the physics more intuitive, imagine an extreme where you're bounding along at say 60 SPM, one step per second.

Additionally mechanics may improve. It's no secret that getting stride rate up often cures a nasty case of overstriding.

Lower impact + better mechanics = less destruction of the body. So you can train high mileage, and in minimal shoes, as the gods and l-run intended.

Someone above mentioned shuffling. Is there anything wrong with that? I'm marathon training (new to running), and I feel like I'm shuffling, unless I'm running under a 7:00 mile pace, which only happens on my tempo runs. But, the shuffling feels very low-impact, and I haven't had any injury problems yet.

Do what comes naturally. That is a long loping 160-170 for some, or a short fast 200-210 for others.

180 is not a magic number

It really depends on who you're looking at. The fact that most elites are fairly similar in build suggests that leg length is fairly consistent and, by the force of sheer math, requires fairly standard stride rates. Looking at shorter (in the extreme) and taller (in the extreme) may reveal some shift in the bell curve, but, overall, there will be a statistically significant average because of body type. I think Adbi would be one obvious exception.

iwanttobefaster wrote:

In his book Jack Daniels mentions stride rate and 180 strides a minute (90 left, 90 right) seems to be the perfect rate)

I have counted mine on occassion and i come close usually about 178 strides.

Now the query i am an average runner, certainly not up for any prizes, but i'd like to be much faster today twice in a run i counted how long 180 strides took me both times 61 seconds. So its close. So how do i improve get quicker where stride rate is near what it should be.

I admit stride length is short.

feet don't rise that much of the ground

Any thoughts much appreciated.

Watch top runners in any event from 800m to marathon. You'll see virtually no 160spm (strides per minute) runners. Most will be at or over 180, except possibly for very tall runners. This is probably what Dr. Daniels had in mind. To answer your original question, you can develop a faster stride rate by consciously picking up your cadence between telephone polls on recover runs or by focusing on maintaining a faster cadence in your track workouts. You'll probably notice that your turnover slows as you get tired. That's normal, but if you practice maintaining turnover in your workouts, it's easier to do in races. -Good luck.

Stride rate depends on a lot of things but it's good you're thinking about it.

Some things to consider: When going from a jog to a faster run, your stride length AND your stride rate increases. So, if you're cruising at 7:00 pace, I would not expect your stride rate to be 180. However, when you get up to speed, increases in velocity come from an increase in stride rate only. Your stride length tends to max itself out. That is why most of the guys in the final are running at the same cadences.

The final piece of the puzzle is your contact time with the ground. This should really be minimized. So, if you want to increase your stride cadence, think about 'picking your feet off the ground' as you run. Get them off the ground as quickly as possible. Try that and I would bet you will increase your stride rate.

When I read that section in the 2nd edition book I believe Daniels stated that he and his wife observed many runners at the Olympics and 180 was a minimum number. I was left with the impression it was not a large scientific study per say and that 180 was not the exact optimum.

I had just started back running again and checked my SPM at 160. So I did an A-B test on a treadmill on myself using an S625X Polar unit to record my heart rate and speed data. (I have worked in R&D gathering data and testing in the automotive field much of my career so I record data on 99% of my runs) What I found was about a 4 to 5 BPM lower heart rate with 180 SPM vs 160 SPM. It felt very awkward at the higher stride rate though and put more load on my calf muscles and Achilles' tendon.

I decided it was worth pursuing and purchased this little metronome

http://tinyurl.com/26khaq

to aid in the transition to a higher natural stride rate.

I would either land one foot to the beat (1/2 rate) or every other step to the beat (1/3 rate) and increased the beat gradually over time. I spent about 6 months using this thing. It took a while for my legs to build up the weak areas and to feel "natural".

The result was an increase in my stride rate on an easy run from 160ish to 194-196 SPM. I also saw benefits of easier hill running, better endurance, less injuries, and faster times in races.

During the last year I have used a Polar RS800SD which measures/records real time stride rate and calculates/records average stride length (per lap) in addition to speed, distance, altitude, HR, lap times etc. This has been interesting, as I have found stride rate to indeed vary naturally (for me) with different paces. Also, as I get tired, stride rate will slow slightly and the length grows to compensate unless I get so fatigued that I slow down.

- Slow recovery runs 188-192

- Easy/steady runs 194-198

- Marathon pace 200-204

- Threshold pace 208-212

- 10k/5k pace 212-216

- Mile pace 220-224

I happen to be short at 5'4" and have short legs to boot. I have never been fast and I am older, but I have made solid gains in the last 3 years and set all my PRs this year. I feel this area to be significant in my case and put a lot of effort into it.

I run marathons in the T4-T5 shoes, as the lighter weight is important with high turnover.

"Does the 180 strides per minute apply regardless of pace? My understanding is that the initial study looked at elite runners in competition (800m-marathon) and found that they all had the same stride rate. This seems to suggest that to some degree pace doesn't matter. On the other hand, for an elite runner, even marathon pace is ~5:00 miles. I have a hard time imagining running, say, 7:00 miles at 180 strides/minute, but maybe this is because of problems with my form?"

Definitely not. If you count the turnovers of any elite 5k runners while racing they all do over 190 (96-98 right footstrikes per min.) (I havent counted Mottram though, he may be less). If you count in the last lap, especially in a tactical race where the top runners drop sub 55 last laps their TOs are all around 104-106 R ft-strikes/min. So around 210. I would assume that 180 refers to where you should be running in a normal run around 6:30-7 pace or 165 HR type of thing.