Japanese Marathon Training Methods

Ah! Spider(man)! I owe you a couple of e-mails! Thank you for your nice holiday greeting message. Honestly, I've been quite sick for almost 3 weeks and still a bit struggling to get over it. Today was the first time, since New Year's, I felt fine going 1:50 run. I will send you an e-mail later separately (I'm cleaning the house right now, sneaking to post these messages while my wife is not around!). I needed to tell something to you and a few others. Anyways, Lydiard site is back again and still working on "construction" part. Taking a long time...and costing a lot too!

Bob: Yes, it would have been one hell of a race. More than Rodgers even, I thought Sandval was quite impressive at the trial and he would have finished very well. Many Japanese thought, and still think, that Japanese would have taken all 3 spots at Moscow. I think it was quite possible. That 1979 Fukuoka was something. The way Takeshi took off 2k to go so fast; the way Shigeru came back and caught up; and the way Seko came back and sprinted away at the end... Interestingly, one person who publicly stated that Seko wouldn't have won was Nakamura. The reason? Simply, it's because it "never happened." Basically what he was saying is; what's the point of speculating about something that never happened? Actually this comment kept coming back to me, reading all those Ryan Hall threads about how fast he would run the marathon or 10k... We'll see when it happens.

The search engine on this site works really well.

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=534234

Nobby, I saw Shigeru and Takeshi Soh run about 125+km loop one day in NZ (@4min per km). Clearly this was a one off special training run but I wonder whether modern day Japanese runnners do similar one off runs.

When Jeff Schiebler (Canadian record holder in 5/10.00) trained in Japan with his corporate team, he was allowed to cut out the morning run with his "teammates" because he said it was too slow and a waste of time - basically one hour of jogging at a very slow pace. He stayed in bed and then trained with the team in the afternoon.

Despite training less than the others Schiebler still ran around 13:13 and 27:36 for 5000/10.000.

He is now retired and training with the Vancouver Fire Service as his future "career."

coach Chris Moulton:

christophe_moulton@yahoo.ca

Soh brothers and Seko were pioneer of ultra-distance training for the marathon in Japan. But the idea is nothing new; Halberg ran 30 miles for training 5000m and so did Norpoth running 60k (I think). This is where Japanese adapted Lydiard principles: as Koide explained to me was "Lydiard trained his runners 100 miles a week so they can sprint the last 200m of an 800m race. We train our marathon runners 200 miles a week so they can run flat-out 5k in the last part of a marathon race." Now it's not a literal description of their training but that's the idea. Seko did 80km training run because he wanted to "feel that 42km is not a long distance." Soh brothers did 125km (actually, Takeshi did 128km), well, for the heck of it. I don't think they ever did it again; nor did they make their runners to do the similar training load once they became coaches. Some of them definitely think they need to put mileages--Fujita is one; I think he did as much as 1200km a month before he did 2:06 but then plagued with series of injureis. Okutani, preparing for Fukuoka last December where he finished 4th in 2:08 to make the WC team, ran 70km a day for 2 weeks. Suwa, who missed the 4th place by a step behind Okutani, preparing for Athens Olympic marathon where he finished 6th, added 10 minutes to warm-up and cool-down and morning jog; total of 30 minutes more running per day. Takahashi runs, for a certain period of time, up to 70km a day for some time. But then again, Noguchi doesn't run as far; neither does Shibui. Ozaki who finished 2nd ahead of Takahashi at Tokyo last year, did 30km runs almost every week but no further. I checked Seko's training and, during his developmental stage where he ran 2:15 behind Rodgers at 77 Fukuoka, was only running about 500km a month and that's not a mega-mileage at all (at his prime, close to 1000km/month). If you can get away with training less mileage fast and run well, go ahead and stick with it. But if you can't, you've got to find a way to perform better and, with the case of most Japanese runners, it is more kilometers. You can go all day looking for runners who perform great with less mileage (Marsh, Doubell, Coe if you want...) but if that system doesn't suit you, you've got to find the way to improve your performance and it could be to run more mileage. There's no way around it. I'm sorry but all the threads about looking for low-mileage performers are, to me, nothing but looking for an excuse not to run more. If you can run 2:08 with that way, all the power to you.

Hi Nobby,

Thank you so much for your enlightening posts. I currently live in Korea, however I'm hoping to visit Tokyo next month ( probably the weekend of the marathon). Is there any chance we can meet up for a chat over a coffee about Japanese marathoning principles?

Regards,

The Monk.

Nobby,

I live in an area outside of Osaka that has an incredible amount of trails. It seems like an ideal place to train but I almost never see other runners on them. Even the track team at my university never uses the trails right next to their campus. I know I am generalizing but is there any reason for this or it just a coincidence/no real reason?

I live in Sendai, not a lot of good places to train here although there are quite a lot of good runners from Tohoku. The high school runners are pretty amazing here, although there is a huge emphasis on Ekiden races, which are huge events here. Running seems to be pretty specialized activity here though, not much of a running community.

I live in Sendai for nine years and trained with Ikue (sp) for a bit. Where do you live in Sendai?

The Monk:

Sorry, but I live in Minnesota ;o) Been lived here for the last 17 years. Watch out for going to Tokyo for the marathon weekend; it will be worse than Ueno Zoo with the traffic restriction for over 6 hours!

Zatopek:

I remember talking to coach Nakamura about Seko's cross country--with his middle distance background, track credential and marathon stamina, he should have done really well in the World Cross. He simply said, "Seko doesn't know how to run XC." As you know, Seko almost exclusively trained on Jingu Gaien circuit. For someone who "wouldn't even go across the stone bridge after thoroughly checking it" (old Japanese saying), this could have been their downfall--Seko was known as "a department store of injuries". It was due to his heavy load of training but could also be his lack of "natural" training. One of the biggest injuries in his career started when he went for a nice jog in Europe and stepped on the root of a tree and twisted his ankle. From there, series of injuries started. Soh brothers use XC a lot; for their training as well as in their coaching others. Tosa trains a lot on undulating XC loop in China. Takahashi and Koide's gang loves Magnolia and other trails in Boulder. I'd say it's case-by-case. Maybe you should introduce that trail to your fellow Japanese runners? ;o)

Elite wrote:

Nobby, go ahead, keep talking...

i always enjoy what you have to say.

thanks.

I second that.

Thanks for your contributions Nobby. Could you elaborate on some of the Japanese walking/hiking workouts? Don't some go for long walks with heavy backpacks early in preparation phase?

Nobby, do you know why so many Japanese marathon runners use Phiten tape? In Fukuoka almost every other runner's legs had those little plasters.

Fujita: I thought you used it too!? Too bad at Fukuoka, huh...;o) Just kidding. I guess it's because they think it works? Well, put it this way: I get a Japanese running magazine every month. When it's time for junior high school championships or high school championships, I see a lot more kids wearing those Phiten things or Breathe Right. They are more likely to try EVERYTHING. They see Takahashi wearing it and they'll try it. It may work; it may not. But if they think it does work, they'll more likely continue to use it. Besides, with their eastern thinking, they would more easily believe those remedies. Whether magnet really helps or not, I cannot say. But there's a Japanese company that sells a little magnet adhesive product and they do a good business there. I tried magnet when I hurt my Achilles but I don't think it did much at all. But then again, this does not mean I will not try it again when I get old(er) and have some low back pain or something like that. I believe in acupuncture. I've had a good experience with it and I think it works. Some of you don't believe in it (my wife doesn't, but she doesn't like needle anyways!). I take vitamin supplements and she doesn't. She thinks it's mainly psychological. But I'd say if it works psychologically, it still works.

And as for walking; I think you've pretty much got it right. Yes, SOME do go on a long hiking--Eriko Asai coached by a gentleman by the name of Isao Sasaki who advocated extreme LSD very successfully in the mid to late 80s (Asai went to 88 Olympics and he had two guys who ran 2:10 and 2:11). They used to go for a 6-hour hiking with backpack. Not all of them do that. Is it better to do backpack? I don't know. They might have just had lunch in it for all I know ;o) As long as it doesn't affect your balance adversely, I guess it strengthen your legs even further. Don't just jump on and do it. Go at it gradually just like everything else. I noticed when I walk hard, my shin gets sore because it uses slightly different muscle groups.

I think Japanese walk more because they believe it's better for running than cycling or swimming. They get into this straight walking form with high center of gravity which they believe you can attain by walking "right"; perhaps more so than cycling or swimming. Straight leg swing and arm swing; good posture, etc. Good light exercise for recovery as well. I'd say there's definitely a place for walking; there may be a better place for cycling that Japanese may have overlooked. Doesn't seem to have hurt them much though. Interestingly, I may be wrong but I don't hear too many Kenyan riding a bike when they're injured...have you?

Tyler Durden wrote:

The search engine on this site works really well.

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=534234

nothing new, it is all right here.

Given that Rodgers didn't like the hot weather, I don't think he would have done well in Moscow, as the temperature at the start of the Marathon race was 78 degrees.

to zatopek

I live near Nishi Park (Tachimachi, close to Kokubuncho). I am probably moving from here soon back to the US...been in Japan for about 7 years or so.

I lived very close to there in Hasekura-cho near the university hospital. I worked at the YMCA for three years and then Shirayuri. There are some decent trails above the river. Have yuo been there?

Nobby, I am not sure what you do for a living, but if close to retirement or if you need a supplement - I think the translation of some of these Japanese writings would sell well. I also want to chime in on one of your comments about training less. If you read any of the "top running" magazines they will all tell you how to run "faster by running less" "lose weight by eating more" etc. Training for running is an art not a science (two parts of hydrogen and one part of oxygen is water in Chicago or Pairs-- that is science); however (if you do 20 x 400 @62 with a 200 recovery in 1:00 and I do the same we will not have the same results-- that is the art of coaching). Keep posting as we all can learn from you.