Can Hiltz take male hormones under a legal limit?

rekrunner wrote:

TUE for transition wrote:

I could see the moral justification to taking something to stay just under the legal limit, sort of like masters runners taking things for other medical conditions. The rise of Hiltz since coming out as sometimes a dude in the past few years makes this question relevant. Maybe not testosterone, which is fundamentally I don’t believe can have any minimal TUE, but I wonder if anything else. Hiltz wasn’t this good as just a girl.

If we assume it's "under a legal limit", there is no legal reason preventing anyone and everyone from taking male hormones.

Can someone explain this public obsession with Nikki Hiltz -- isn't she just a biological woman rightfully competing as a woman, who is just asking us to use different pronouns? I can understand the unfairness of XY DSD athletes, or biological male athletes, competing against biological women, but what is the issue here? Is it physical/biological, or mental/psychological?

RunRagged wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

Under the rules she cannot have a T level that exceeds 5nmol. Most women have levels from 0.6-2.9nmol. However testosterone is a banned drug so she can't use it legally. But most athletes know how to mask drug use now.

Can you link to the rules you're referring to? Or at least please name the rules you mean so that others can look them up.

The normal range for natural testosterone in women age 18 and up who aren't visibly pregnant and don't have a chronic health condition that causes elevated natural is 0.2-1.68 nmol/L.

If you use a reference range that includes women who have elevated natural T (aka hyperandrogenism) due to chronic conditions such as PCOS and CAH, or due to a temporary condition such as pregnancy, then the upper end of the normal reference range for healthy females age 18 and up who aren't visibly pregnant is 2.4 nmol/L.

IIRC from the Shelby Houlihan case, athletes competing in eltie women's events get flagged for further investigation if their anti-doping tests reveal a T level of 1.7 nmol/L or more. If an athlete in women's competition has a T level that high, the first thing officials will require is a pregnancy test, since pregnancy is the most common reason for elevated natural T in girls and women. (The normal female T range during pregnancy is 1.7-4.2 nmol/L)

My understanding is that the regulations in track & field and other sports do not place an upper limit on the amount of natural testosterone from endogenous sources allowed in female athletes. The limits on testosterone (and other androgens) in female athletes solely apply to testosterone/androgens that come from exogenous sources.

AFAIK, the only athletes competing in women's track & field subject to restrictions on their levels of naturally-produced T are male athletes born with testes and who have enough androgen receptors in good working order to have male-typical sensitivity to T.

Per WA's current rules, male athletes with a handful of DSD conditions who meet specific criteria like Caster Semenya, and male athletes who claim to have trans gender identities, can only gain eligiblity for women's competition if they can show that their natural testosterone has been below 2.5 nmol/L for varying lengths of time - 24 months, or in some cases 6 months, for athletes with XY DSDs; and since age 12 or Tannner Stage 2, whichever came first, for male athletes who claim a trans gender identity.

RunRagged wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

Under the rules she cannot have a T level that exceeds 5nmol. Most women have levels from 0.6-2.9nmol. However testosterone is a banned drug so she can't use it legally. But most athletes know how to mask drug use now.

Can you link to the rules you're referring to? Or at least please name the rules you mean so that others can look them up.

The normal range for natural testosterone in women age 18 and up who aren't visibly pregnant and don't have a chronic health condition that causes elevated natural is 0.2-1.68 nmol/L.

If you use a reference range that includes women who have elevated natural T (aka hyperandrogenism) due to chronic conditions such as PCOS and CAH, or due to a temporary condition such as pregnancy, then the upper end of the normal reference range for healthy females age 18 and up who aren't visibly pregnant is 2.4 nmol/L.

IIRC from the Shelby Houlihan case, athletes competing in eltie women's events get flagged for further investigation if their anti-doping tests reveal a T level of 1.7 nmol/L or more. If an athlete in women's competition has a T level that high, the first thing officials will require is a pregnancy test, since pregnancy is the most common reason for elevated natural T in girls and women. (The normal female T range during pregnancy is 1.7-4.2 nmol/L)

My understanding is that the regulations in track & field and other sports do not place an upper limit on the amount of natural testosterone from endogenous sources allowed in female athletes. The limits on testosterone (and other androgens) in female athletes solely apply to testosterone/androgens that come from exogenous sources.

AFAIK, the only athletes competing in women's track & field subject to restrictions on their levels of naturally-produced T are male athletes born with testes and who have enough androgen receptors in good working order to have male-typical sensitivity to T.

Per WA's current rules, male athletes with a handful of DSD conditions who meet specific criteria like Caster Semenya, and male athletes who claim to have trans gender identities, can only gain eligiblity for women's competition if they can show that their natural testosterone has been below 2.5 nmol/L for varying lengths of time - 24 months, or in some cases 6 months, for athletes with XY DSDs; and since age 12 or Tannner Stage 2, whichever came first, for male athletes who claim a trans gender identity.

Tonto wrote:

RunRagged wrote:

Can you link to the rules you're referring to? Or at least please name the rules you mean so that others can look them up.

The normal range for natural testosterone in women age 18 and up who aren't visibly pregnant and don't have a chronic health condition that causes elevated natural is 0.2-1.68 nmol/L.

If you use a reference range that includes women who have elevated natural T (aka hyperandrogenism) due to chronic conditions such as PCOS and CAH, or due to a temporary condition such as pregnancy, then the upper end of the normal reference range for healthy females age 18 and up who aren't visibly pregnant is 2.4 nmol/L.

IIRC from the Shelby Houlihan case, athletes competing in eltie women's events get flagged for further investigation if their anti-doping tests reveal a T level of 1.7 nmol/L or more. If an athlete in women's competition has a T level that high, the first thing officials will require is a pregnancy test, since pregnancy is the most common reason for elevated natural T in girls and women. (The normal female T range during pregnancy is 1.7-4.2 nmol/L)

My understanding is that the regulations in track & field and other sports do not place an upper limit on the amount of natural testosterone from endogenous sources allowed in female athletes. The limits on testosterone (and other androgens) in female athletes solely apply to testosterone/androgens that come from exogenous sources.

AFAIK, the only athletes competing in women's track & field subject to restrictions on their levels of naturally-produced T are male athletes born with testes and who have enough androgen receptors in good working order to have male-typical sensitivity to T.

Per WA's current rules, male athletes with a handful of DSD conditions who meet specific criteria like Caster Semenya, and male athletes who claim to have trans gender identities, can only gain eligiblity for women's competition if they can show that their natural testosterone has been below 2.5 nmol/L for varying lengths of time - 24 months, or in some cases 6 months, for athletes with XY DSDs; and since age 12 or Tannner Stage 2, whichever came first, for male athletes who claim a trans gender identity.

Great post, but a little out of date on the last paragraph. no longer permitted.

Again, great ppst but this thread is not discussing DSD's or trans women.

This thread is simply concern regarding the potential for TUE use of exogenous testosterone by cis women (self reclassified as trans men or binary individuals) who compete in the womens restricted division.

The hope is that they would be under strict policed scruitny to maintain a low nmol T level at all times (say <2nmol for the sake of argument), but without public disclosure, the concern is that WADA would be bound to allow the extremely broad band defined separately in the DSD and hyperendrogenism cases that allow up to 5nmol naturally ocurring.

Armstronglivs wrote:

RunRagged wrote:

Can you link to the rules you're referring to? Or at least please name the rules you mean so that others can look them up.

The normal range for natural testosterone in women age 18 and up who aren't visibly pregnant and don't have a chronic health condition that causes elevated natural is 0.2-1.68 nmol/L.

If you use a reference range that includes women who have elevated natural T (aka hyperandrogenism) due to chronic conditions such as PCOS and CAH, or due to a temporary condition such as pregnancy, then the upper end of the normal reference range for healthy females age 18 and up who aren't visibly pregnant is 2.4 nmol/L.

IIRC from the Shelby Houlihan case, athletes competing in eltie women's events get flagged for further investigation if their anti-doping tests reveal a T level of 1.7 nmol/L or more. If an athlete in women's competition has a T level that high, the first thing officials will require is a pregnancy test, since pregnancy is the most common reason for elevated natural T in girls and women. (The normal female T range during pregnancy is 1.7-4.2 nmol/L)

My understanding is that the regulations in track & field and other sports do not place an upper limit on the amount of natural testosterone from endogenous sources allowed in female athletes. The limits on testosterone (and other androgens) in female athletes solely apply to testosterone/androgens that come from exogenous sources.

AFAIK, the only athletes competing in women's track & field subject to restrictions on their levels of naturally-produced T are male athletes born with testes and who have enough androgen receptors in good working order to have male-typical sensitivity to T.

Per WA's current rules, male athletes with a handful of DSD conditions who meet specific criteria like Caster Semenya, and male athletes who claim to have trans gender identities, can only gain eligiblity for women's competition if they can show that their natural testosterone has been below 2.5 nmol/L for varying lengths of time - 24 months, or in some cases 6 months, for athletes with XY DSDs; and since age 12 or Tannner Stage 2, whichever came first, for male athletes who claim a trans gender identity.

The rules I refer to apply to athletes with XY disorders of sexual development competing in the female category. The 5nmol level set for them is above the level that female athletes would naturally attain so there isn't a limit set for cis-females. A biological female could not surpass the t-level set for DSD athletes as they do not possess testes.

However, as testosterone is a banned substance regardless of sex neither females or males can use it.