Any current runner who thinks they could have run the times they are posting back in the 90's is kidding themselves. The advancements in track and shoe technology has completely changed what is possible. But more importantly, there are two major factors that have nothing to do with tech. The first is access to meets, and the second is training.
Back when I ran in the late 80's we never dreamed of competing outside of our state. And the larger invitational meets were not a big thing. Basically a couple of dual meets or tri meets and then off to state to do your best. Maybe 1 invitational a season with 10-12 teams. Compare that to today's 10 "national" meets and destination races like Arcadia and you have a completely different opportunity. We used to race for place, not time, and you were lucky if you had 2 or 3 top runners in a race. Usually there were 10-15 second gaps in a race like the 3200. Now you have entire fields going for sub 8:45 that pull the group along. Throw in a pacer (we never had those) and it's much more like a college or diamond league event than a high school race. And the kids aren't even concerned about "racing". It's all about posting a great time to impress college coaches. It's a completely different thought process and hence why we see the times we do today.
The other more controversial issue is the coaching. Programs today are all about making HS runners as attractive to colleges as possible. Pump them up to 80-90 miles a week. Throw in 6 mile work out sessions, two a days, and keep them going with recovery tools, and you basically are just making high school runners into college athletes. Sure there are some that continue to improve when they hit campus, but there are 3 or 4 schools, and you all know who they are, that have their kids win NXN, or New Balance, etc. and then the kids never do anything over the next 4 years.
Based on these 4 factors, I don't doubt we will conitnue to see 150 even 200 kids break 9:00 before it finally plateaus again.
There is no reputable program in the country that has their runners running 80-90 miles a week. That would be a disaster. The best programs do 50-60 miles.
Any current runner who thinks they could have run the times they are posting back in the 90's is kidding themselves. The advancements in track and shoe technology has completely changed what is possible. But more importantly, there are two major factors that have nothing to do with tech. The first is access to meets, and the second is training.
Back when I ran in the late 80's we never dreamed of competing outside of our state. And the larger invitational meets were not a big thing. Basically a couple of dual meets or tri meets and then off to state to do your best. Maybe 1 invitational a season with 10-12 teams. Compare that to today's 10 "national" meets and destination races like Arcadia and you have a completely different opportunity. We used to race for place, not time, and you were lucky if you had 2 or 3 top runners in a race. Usually there were 10-15 second gaps in a race like the 3200. Now you have entire fields going for sub 8:45 that pull the group along. Throw in a pacer (we never had those) and it's much more like a college or diamond league event than a high school race. And the kids aren't even concerned about "racing". It's all about posting a great time to impress college coaches. It's a completely different thought process and hence why we see the times we do today.
The other more controversial issue is the coaching. Programs today are all about making HS runners as attractive to colleges as possible. Pump them up to 80-90 miles a week. Throw in 6 mile work out sessions, two a days, and keep them going with recovery tools, and you basically are just making high school runners into college athletes. Sure there are some that continue to improve when they hit campus, but there are 3 or 4 schools, and you all know who they are, that have their kids win NXN, or New Balance, etc. and then the kids never do anything over the next 4 years.
Based on these 4 factors, I don't doubt we will conitnue to see 150 even 200 kids break 9:00 before it finally plateaus again.
There is no reputable program in the country that has their runners running 80-90 miles a week. That would be a disaster. The best programs do 50-60 miles.
It's not the shoes, you and your peers were just bad and not competitive.
Yet, the prize ponies of today can't run any faster XC times than those horrible runners in the 80s and 90s.
Explain that Chief. Do y'all just suck at XC today? Or do your cheater shoes not work on soft surfaces? Since you claim it's not the shoes. Y'all must just suck at XC
It's just a well known and widely accepted fact that the 90s were the worst period of time for US distance running at every level. No need to be personally offended by it. You should be thankful that Don Sage and the Big Three from the 2000s brought us out of that dark age, or maybe not since that makes your 15:30 5k less impressive.
I think pandemic-era shutdowns had a major reason for this uptick in sub-9s. Think about it. . You can't hang out with your friends. You've played hours of video games already. You've got major cabin fever. You have a ton more time to run. You run. You have the closest thing to a pro-career-lifestyle by way of running, eating, sleeping, and remote classwork.
This goes all the way back to middle and elementary school kids back in 2020. Then add in the super spikes for the cherry on top. It all makes perfect sense.
If my theory holds true we should see a decline in sub-9s in the next 2-4 years back to pre-pandemic levels plus an added weight for the carbon plate shoes.
There is no reputable program in the country that has their runners running 80-90 miles a week. That would be a disaster. The best programs do 50-60 miles.
you'd be surprised
I don’t know about 80-90, but there are definitely some top tier guys out there routinely running 70-75. Which is completely fine by the way.
Yet, the prize ponies of today can't run any faster XC times than those horrible runners in the 80s and 90s.
Explain that Chief. Do y'all just suck at XC today? Or do your cheater shoes not work on soft surfaces? Since you claim it's not the shoes. Y'all must just suck at XC
Since that makes your 15:30 5k less impressive.
So if someone starts at lets say running a 28 minute 5k, do you think they could get to a sub 15 minute 5k within a couple of months? Because I'm quite curious how you think a sub 15 minute 5k isn't impressive? What's your 5k time I wonder.
So if someone starts at lets say running a 28 minute 5k, do you think they could get to a sub 15 minute 5k within a couple of months? Because I'm quite curious how you think a sub 15 minute 5k isn't impressive? What's your 5k time I wonder.
1. Irrelevant to the thread subject or the second question, but the answer is pretty obviously no. 2. Oh, so you think this is bragging, alright. 14:34 on the track and 15:01 en route 8k split for XC as a mid pack college walk-on. There, anything else?
1) It's the shoes. The more efficient you are, the more helpful the shoes are. 4-7 seconds per mile.
2) The internet. We have access to almost everything that everyone is doing. We are a culture that is constantly comparing one another to each other. If we see someone do something we try to do it better.
3) Opportunity. The multiple national championships might dilute the fields, but it gives so many more kids a chance to run fast against other fast kids.
4) NIL. Some kids like the clout that NIL gives them. They get some free gear, free travel to meets and get to feel fairly popular.
Yet, the prize ponies of today can't run any faster XC times than those horrible runners in the 80s and 90s.
Explain that Chief. Do y'all just suck at XC today? Or do your cheater shoes not work on soft surfaces? Since you claim it's not the shoes. Y'all must just suck at XC
It's just a well known and widely accepted fact that the 90s were the worst period of time for US distance running at every level. No need to be personally offended by it. You should be thankful that Don Sage and the Big Three from the 2000s brought us out of that dark age, or maybe not since that makes your 15:30 5k less impressive.
All those sub 9 kids still can't run XC as fast a Reuben Reina did in 1986. I'm sorry your cheater shoes don't make you as good as you think you are.
So if someone starts at lets say running a 28 minute 5k, do you think they could get to a sub 15 minute 5k within a couple of months? Because I'm quite curious how you think a sub 15 minute 5k isn't impressive? What's your 5k time I wonder.
1. Irrelevant to the thread subject or the second question, but the answer is pretty obviously no. 2. Oh, so you think this is bragging, alright. 14:34 on the track and 15:01 en route 8k split for XC as a mid pack college walk-on. There, anything else?
No, that's not impressive, many of us ran faster than you in regular shoes. You tried to toot your own horn and all you got was.... womp womp.
Couple of you guys said CC times aren't getting faster. That's just not true in CA. The number of fast times at the CA state meet is far greater now than it has ever been in the past.
Sure, Ruben Reina's FL meet record at Balboa still stands, but I view that more as a 1 off type of thing
Maybe the shoes are making things faster, but I don't think its 5-7 seconds per mile as a previous poster said.
Yet, the prize ponies of today can't run any faster XC times than those horrible runners in the 80s and 90s.
Explain that Chief. Do y'all just suck at XC today? Or do your cheater shoes not work on soft surfaces? Since you claim it's not the shoes. Y'all must just suck at XC
It's just a well known and widely accepted fact that the 90s were the worst period of time for US distance running at every level. No need to be personally offended by it. You should be thankful that Don Sage and the Big Three from the 2000s brought us out of that dark age, or maybe not since that makes your 15:30 5k less impressive.
The current HS 800m record was set in 1996.
Here are the footlocker results from 1979-2023. Notice how the times stay in the same range, even through the horrible 90s. Why is that? Your clown shoes don't work on grass.
Honestly, breaking 9 isn’t that hard. Anyone who can get reasonably close to 4:15 for 1600 can go sub-9. It was much rarer back in the day, but the new shoes since Covid have enabled better recovery from training and faster race times in general. Worth one sec per lap, so, basically, sub-9:00 today was sub-9:10 some five years ago. Sub-8:50 is the new sub-9:00.
It's just a well known and widely accepted fact that the 90s were the worst period of time for US distance running at every level. No need to be personally offended by it. You should be thankful that Don Sage and the Big Three from the 2000s brought us out of that dark age, or maybe not since that makes your 15:30 5k less impressive.
All those sub 9 kids still can't run XC as fast a Reuben Reina did in 1986. I'm sorry your cheater shoes don't make you as good as you think you are.
Reina's footlocker course was different when he ran it
All those sub 9 kids still can't run XC as fast a Reuben Reina did in 1986. I'm sorry your cheater shoes don't make you as good as you think you are.
Reina's footlocker course was different when he ran it
It was still 5k and still at Balboa Park. It didn't change that much. You can add 20 seconds to his time and he's still faster than anyone in the past 4 years.
Surely one of the 136 elite runners in 2024 could have been close? What gives?
XC proves the shoes are cheating. That's what gives.
I think pandemic-era shutdowns had a major reason for this uptick in sub-9s. Think about it. . You can't hang out with your friends. You've played hours of video games already. You've got major cabin fever. You have a ton more time to run. You run. You have the closest thing to a pro-career-lifestyle by way of running, eating, sleeping, and remote classwork.
This goes all the way back to middle and elementary school kids back in 2020. Then add in the super spikes for the cherry on top. It all makes perfect sense.
If my theory holds true we should see a decline in sub-9s in the next 2-4 years back to pre-pandemic levels plus an added weight for the carbon plate shoes.
No. Get out of here with that. This has nothing to do with it.
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