The correct answer is they are starting to train earlier in their lives. Look at the Youngs and Sahlmans --- they were training and racing as early as elementary school. They had a youth track program.
Nico didn’t break through until his sophomore year, when he ran 9:05. Fernandez was rarely healthy until his Senior year.
Any runner that achieved the 15 second difference in pace, between their mile and 2-mile PRs in HS, reached their limit in strength.
Definitely the training. I was in high school in 1998-2002, so not too long ago in the big scheme of things. I was a low to mid 16 minute XC runner at a small school, and I trained with one of the top big school teams in the state because no one else on my team was even close to my ability. We definitely trained way too hard, as there was no concept of heart rate training or controlled efforts.
A typical non race week in the late summer/early fall looked something like this for me:
Mon: Hard 4 mile tempo 5:30ish pace (pretty much a time trial effort).
Tuesday: Base mileage, 7-9 miles, ran at 6:30-7:00 minute pace
Wed: Hill repeats 8x90 seconds (pretty much all out.)
Thursday: Base mileage, 7-9 miles, ran at 6:30-7:00 minute pace
Friday: Longer intervals, such as 6x1k at 5k pace (pretty much all out)
Saturday: Long run 10-12 miles, descending to tempo effort
Sunday: easy run
Obviously way too much intensity for a 16 minute 5k runner in high school, and the easy and long runs were wayyy too fast. If I was coaching myself today, I would slow the tempo run down by 20 seconds per mile, slow the base miles down by 1 minute per mile, change the hills to a shorter length, ie 30 seconds or so, and do the long run at a "zone 2" effort" and descend the 6x1k so that I am not digging myself a big hole by doing each one at 100% effort. I am pretty sure I could have ran much faster in high school, as once I started training properly in college I was able to get into the 14s pretty quickly.
This is actually much less than what the top talent is doing.
There’s definitely something beyond the shoes going on with HS kids. Milesplit number 50 ranking for 3200m each year:
2021: 8:58
2022:8:57
2023:8:54
2024:8:51
it makes me hypothesize that since 2020 some sort of training factor is in the mix since time has been continuously dropping.
I think an understated part of this is greater focus on national caliber meets. 30 years ago, the majority of top caliber runners never left their state other than for Footlocker. 10 years ago, maybe 15 of the top 30 would go to Arcadia. Now, it seems like everyone who can get in goes there. Plus RunningLane, Hoka Festival of Miles, etc. If you want to get recruited, you’re shooting yourself in the foot not going to these meets. And you put all the top guys & gals in perfectly set up meets in perfect conditions, these are the times you see.
About the internet: if it had been around in the late Jurassic when I was in high school, I would have spent hours on it every day FOR INSPIRATION! I don't think that can be under-estimated.
It would be interesting to compare differentials in mile and 2 mile times nowadays for high schoolers. If they are indeed training harder whether it’s shoes or Covid encouraging kids to build big bases, or whatever, we would surely see closer mile and 2 mile paces due to aerobic development, correct?
Definitely the training. I was in high school in 1998-2002, so not too long ago in the big scheme of things. I was a low to mid 16 minute XC runner at a small school, and I trained with one of the top big school teams in the state because no one else on my team was even close to my ability. We definitely trained way too hard, as there was no concept of heart rate training or controlled efforts.
A typical non race week in the late summer/early fall looked something like this for me:
Mon: Hard 4 mile tempo 5:30ish pace (pretty much a time trial effort).
Tuesday: Base mileage, 7-9 miles, ran at 6:30-7:00 minute pace
Wed: Hill repeats 8x90 seconds (pretty much all out.)
Thursday: Base mileage, 7-9 miles, ran at 6:30-7:00 minute pace
Friday: Longer intervals, such as 6x1k at 5k pace (pretty much all out)
Saturday: Long run 10-12 miles, descending to tempo effort
Sunday: easy run
Obviously way too much intensity for a 16 minute 5k runner in high school, and the easy and long runs were wayyy too fast. If I was coaching myself today, I would slow the tempo run down by 20 seconds per mile, slow the base miles down by 1 minute per mile, change the hills to a shorter length, ie 30 seconds or so, and do the long run at a "zone 2" effort" and descend the 6x1k so that I am not digging myself a big hole by doing each one at 100% effort. I am pretty sure I could have ran much faster in high school, as once I started training properly in college I was able to get into the 14s pretty quickly.
You went to college and you don't know how to conjugate the word "run?"
It's obvious that we don't have 5 so-called "generational talents" per year. When we have people running better than Rupp (even adjusting for shoes) who almost certainly was on steroids in HS himself it's so obvious. Especially those who make massive progressions.
These elite high school kids are just maxing out in high school now. If anybody watched Team Ingebrigtsen, Gjert's theory was that all of his sons were going to hit their peak earlier in age but, on the flipside, also be passed their peak earlier as well by their mid-20s or so. He thought Jakob was pretty much maxed out at 21 (he's run 3:28 since he was 19 and has only gotten to 3:27; best 5K time is still from when he was 20), while most normal runners would hit their peak around 24-25. He thinks there is only about 6-7 years of really hard training that the body can adapt to and that's it. Ideally, most American runners wouldn't start this training until they go to college at 18 and then get maxed out when their bodies should be at their strongest at 24-25. The guys starting this training at 14 aren't going to improve past 20-21. We'll see. Nico Young might be the American case study on this. Can he still improve? Or is he at his peak at 21?
These elite high school kids are just maxing out in high school now. If anybody watched Team Ingebrigtsen, Gjert's theory was that all of his sons were going to hit their peak earlier in age but, on the flipside, also be passed their peak earlier as well by their mid-20s or so. He thought Jakob was pretty much maxed out at 21 (he's run 3:28 since he was 19 and has only gotten to 3:27; best 5K time is still from when he was 20), while most normal runners would hit their peak around 24-25. He thinks there is only about 6-7 years of really hard training that the body can adapt to and that's it. Ideally, most American runners wouldn't start this training until they go to college at 18 and then get maxed out when their bodies should be at their strongest at 24-25. The guys starting this training at 14 aren't going to improve past 20-21. We'll see. Nico Young might be the American case study on this. Can he still improve? Or is he at his peak at 21?
Why do you think people are at there strongest at 24? I think the evidence for that is weak at best and the evidence of people peaking physically at 22 is much stronger. In the past people just had their training peaks years after their physical one.
elite guys realistically have 3 prime olympics (call it 22/26/30). Missing one cause you didn’t train in HS seems like a poor choice. And this goes double for 800m guys who tend to lose the edge by 30
Does anybody have any insight into what the top high schoolers training looks like these days? Mileage, workouts, anything about training philosophy?
My apologies for the cliche but I feel I must quote Once A Runner here:
"What was the secret, they wanted to know; in a thousand different ways they wanted to know The Secret. And not one of them was prepared, truly prepared to believe that it had not so much to do with chemicals and zippy mental tricks as with that most unprofound and sometimes heart-rending process of removing, molecule by molecule, the very tough rubber that comprised the bottoms of his training shoes. The Trial of Miles; Miles of Trials."
I hate to break it to ya pal but it mostly comes down to consistency (train year-round, without getting injured, gradually increasing volume and intensity as you get better) and natural talent (some people can run a 50 second quarter, some can't. Some people can run an hour off no training without feeling gassed, some can't). Given that you can't control your talent - you've got no choice but to be consistent if you want to be good. There are no secret workouts that will make you elite. Simeon Birnbaum and Gary Martin were doing the same 6 x 1000 with 3 min rests as you are - they're just doing them much faster.
These elite high school kids are just maxing out in high school now. If anybody watched Team Ingebrigtsen, Gjert's theory was that all of his sons were going to hit their peak earlier in age but, on the flipside, also be passed their peak earlier as well by their mid-20s or so. He thought Jakob was pretty much maxed out at 21 (he's run 3:28 since he was 19 and has only gotten to 3:27; best 5K time is still from when he was 20), while most normal runners would hit their peak around 24-25. He thinks there is only about 6-7 years of really hard training that the body can adapt to and that's it. Ideally, most American runners wouldn't start this training until they go to college at 18 and then get maxed out when their bodies should be at their strongest at 24-25. The guys starting this training at 14 aren't going to improve past 20-21. We'll see. Nico Young might be the American case study on this. Can he still improve? Or is he at his peak at 21?
Why do you think people are at there strongest at 24? I think the evidence for that is weak at best and the evidence of people peaking physically at 22 is much stronger. In the past people just had their training peaks years after their physical one.
elite guys realistically have 3 prime olympics (call it 22/26/30). Missing one cause you didn’t train in HS seems like a poor choice. And this goes double for 800m guys who tend to lose the edge by 30
Somewhat related, but I think Andy Rooney did some sort of segment about how we are never better physically than we are at 21-22 (potential strength, looks, health) and it's a slow decline to rapid decline after age 30. Look at the NFL and the freaks in that 21-23 age bracket running 4.2 40's and throwing the ball 70 yards, etc.
I personally felt invincible at 21. Faster, stronger, could hang in any athletic competition. I saw photos of myself at that age and could not believe how good I looked, lol.
To note: I played against a bunch of 21 year olds in a local basketball tournament when I was in my mid-30's and I could not believe the jumping and quickness they had over me. The decline in power is very real.
Go ahead and downvote me for being a misogynist but I remember when I started dating my ex when she was 30 and her showing me some pics of her at 21 and thinking that dudes must have been absolutely relentless in trying to sleep with her because she looked incredible. You can see why old, rich men are still trying sleep with women of that age.
Once I hit 40 and got married, its been a major challenge to keep weight off and handle intense speed workouts without absolutely trashing your body for a week. I used to fit into small shirts no problem, now it's all mediums. Eventually we all age out of our prime, so enjoy the indestructible years as long as you can because its very short.
Stumbled upon this Danny Simmons from the weekend; said he rebuilt his base between Utah state meet and 5k record, topping out at 84 mpw. Likely 6-day weeks as well given LDS affiliation. Maybe that's particular to the American Fork modus operandi vs other programs, but I suspect it's becoming more common than we realize
Daniel Simmons joins Chris Chavez to break down his 2 mile win and meet record at the 2024 edition of New Balance Nationals Outdoor. Daniel closed his final ...
I doubt most/many folks *truly* hit their distance running peak while in high school but I would venture that both male and female high schoolers can get closer to max than we'd expect (and than previous generations were able to) given the right training. Every state has one if not several high schools that consistently produce state champs, FL/NXN qualifiers, etc. Part of that is culture - within the community and the team itself - and part of it is access to more sophisticated coaching. For example, compare Reed Brown at Southlake Carroll vs Nuguse at some rando Kentucky school, relative to their lifetime (thus far) abilities as graduating seniors in '17. I think the mean level of high school coaching competency has probably improved a lot over the past several years. Combine that with the fact that, generally speaking, high schoolers can more organically hold a favorable power:weight ratio, don't have the same access to parties/drinking/distractions as collegians, are incentivized by college admissions, and live with their parents who take care of "life stuff" and you have an optimized formula to go all in and throw down fast times
Stumbled upon this Danny Simmons from the weekend; said he rebuilt his base between Utah state meet and 5k record, topping out at 84 mpw. Likely 6-day weeks as well given LDS affiliation. Maybe that's particular to the American Fork modus operandi vs other programs, but I suspect it's becoming more common than we realize
Danny is an interesting case. When he lived in Idaho, even as a freshman to sophomore, he was doing 50+ mile weeks. I assume most of it was that he had several older brothers who had been through the American Fork program and got him on the same general regime.
When the family was looking to move from Salmon Idaho, they considered several good schools in the Boise area, but ultimately (whether this was a factor or not in their decision) it would not have been a good fit. The two best programs in Idaho at the time were Boise and Rocky Mountain, both of whom maxed their runners out at 50-60 miles per week during the summer and 30-40 during the season.
American Fork does a 3-4 mile easy run EVERY morning before school. If Danny is adding a bit of volume to those runs, and has longer workouts than most, it wouldn't be hard to touch a couple 80 mile weeks.
The baseline that I've learned to think about mileage is that you can increase your milage to get more fit, but once you do, you can't go back. If you can run consistent 15 minute 5k's off of 50 mile weeks, scaling the milage to 35 but increasing the quality is unlikely to have you improve by much (if at all).
It's only been since covid that we've had more than a dozen or so studs each you who are running 70-80 miles per week for years. So far, it looks like the class of 23 has stalled out a little in college, because in order to see large gains, they would need to bump up to 90+ MPW.
Rocky Hansen didn't do much mileage as far as I understand it, but now that he's been bumped up to college level milage, he's seen much greater gains than others in his class who were doing the high milage from a younger age.