Hfhgh wrote:
I thought the shoes didn’t work.
They don't work as well as the dragonflys on the track (which are track legal).
It seems the stack rule is purely for aesthetics.
2nd place DQ for shoes at U20 5000m?
College Running
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Man Moth wrote:
fail coach wrote:
That's awful, she missed out on making a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP TEAM because her coach was clueless of the rules.
Unforgiveable.
She was also clueless of the rules, so she can blame herself.
She's a college freshman who is just learning NCAA rules where those shoes are allowed.
The coach 100% should have known. It's the coach's job to know.
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fail coach wrote:
Man Moth wrote:
She was also clueless of the rules, so she can blame herself.
She's a college freshman who is just learning NCAA rules where those shoes are allowed.
The coach 100% should have known. It's the coach's job to know.
She's 18 years old; where I'm from, that means you're an adult.
If you don't know the rules, that's on you. Your coach shouldn't have to hold your hand through everything.
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FWIW, the coach in question has now been fired. Whether or not that is directly related to this incident isn't clear, but it probably didn't help
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By the way, this article (linked) had a quote from the athlete about what happened:
Conversely, on the women's side, a moment of happiness turned to sorrow for the former York standout Bria Bennis, now at Vanderbilt University. Initially, Bennis placed second in a hard-fought 5000m in 16:15.58. She was ready to punch her ticket for the Pan-Am's [sic -- U20 Worlds] until she was told that her racing spikes violated rule 143.3A (Nike Vapor flys did not meet criteria.) Unfortunately, her performance was negated, and she was disqualified.Bennis said, "My coaches were unaware that Nike vaporflys are not world-legal, and I raced in them for the 5k yesterday. I had a shoe check before and after the race, but no one informed me that I could not race in them, especially since they are NCAA legal. I have raced in them all season... so the USATF invalidated the race, and I no longer get the opportunity to race for Team USA in Peru." Bennis returned on Thursday to compete in the 3000m and took third with a personal best 9:43.80.
So she herself evidently holds her coaches primarily responsible. Although if officials checked her shoes twice, I'm not sure why they wouldn't have said anything then.
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They check spikes aren't too long.
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Man Moth wrote:
Hfhgh wrote:
I thought the shoes didn’t work.
They don't work as well as the dragonflys on the track (which are track legal).
It seems the stack rule is purely for aesthetics.
It's the opposite - vaporflys provide more of an advantage than dragonflys do for any distance 5000m and longer. The person you're replying to has shown he's incapable of distinguishing between road and track shoes though, hence the obsessive posting on every thread about them.
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I've done the Vaporflys for a track 5k. Personally, not a fan. I don't feel stable going around the curbs with them. Dragonflies all the way.
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Man Moth wrote:
fail coach wrote:
She's a college freshman who is just learning NCAA rules where those shoes are allowed.
The coach 100% should have known. It's the coach's job to know.
She's 18 years old; where I'm from, that means you're an adult.
If you don't know the rules, that's on you. Your coach shouldn't have to hold your hand through everything.
What is the mechanism by which a collegiate athlete is supposed to learn the rules? Do they go look up the rules and study them themselves? Is any normal athlete expected to do that? In my admittedly limited experience they normally learn them from their coaches.
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The meet website specifically calls out on the info page that USATF does not allow road shoes to be used.
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FatSlowLurker wrote:
Man Moth wrote:
She's 18 years old; where I'm from, that means you're an adult.
If you don't know the rules, that's on you. Your coach shouldn't have to hold your hand through everything.
What is the mechanism by which a collegiate athlete is supposed to learn the rules? Do they go look up the rules and study them themselves? Is any normal athlete expected to do that? In my admittedly limited experience they normally learn them from their coaches.
I haven't competed in the collegiate system but I have competed at the national level in my home country. Yes I read the rules, and I would encourage other athletes to do the same. Knowing the actual rules of competition is important for avoiding surprises when a competition is run differently than your local competition (which can sometimes be more lenient. Case in point: NCAAs) and also important for being able to advocate for yourself in competition. Examples of being able to advocate yourself:
* You've been DQ'd but you want to protest this ruling. You need to know who to protest to and how it needs to happen. e.g. Is it important that I raise a protest to a referee before I leave the field of play or can I just escalate to a protest committee within a certain time after the completion of the race? If you need to protest before leaving the field of play, you won't have the opportunity to get guidance from your coach on how to act.* You are given an instruction by an official and you know that it is against the rules. You need to be able to explain to them why you're not complying with their instruction. (This has happened to me with relay changeover positioning.)
* You may want to call out when someone else is violating the rules. For instance you might want to make the officials aware that someone in your race is wearing illegal shoes ;) You could argue that it's not a great show of sportsmanship to "snitch" on a competitor but at least by knowing the rules you're empowered to make that decision.
I really don't think it's crazy to expect elite athletes to know the rules of their sport, whether that sport is track and field or otherwise.22 -
Fin wrote:
FatSlowLurker wrote:
What is the mechanism by which a collegiate athlete is supposed to learn the rules? Do they go look up the rules and study them themselves? Is any normal athlete expected to do that? In my admittedly limited experience they normally learn them from their coaches.
I haven't competed in the collegiate system but I have competed at the national level in my home country. Yes I read the rules, and I would encourage other athletes to do the same. Knowing the actual rules of competition is important for avoiding surprises when a competition is run differently than your local competition (which can sometimes be more lenient. Case in point: NCAAs) and also important for being able to advocate for yourself in competition. Examples of being able to advocate yourself:
* You've been DQ'd but you want to protest this ruling. You need to know who to protest to and how it needs to happen. e.g. Is it important that I raise a protest to a referee before I leave the field of play or can I just escalate to a protest committee within a certain time after the completion of the race? If you need to protest before leaving the field of play, you won't have the opportunity to get guidance from your coach on how to act.* You are given an instruction by an official and you know that it is against the rules. You need to be able to explain to them why you're not complying with their instruction. (This has happened to me with relay changeover positioning.)
* You may want to call out when someone else is violating the rules. For instance you might want to make the officials aware that someone in your race is wearing illegal shoes ;) You could argue that it's not a great show of sportsmanship to "snitch" on a competitor but at least by knowing the rules you're empowered to make that decision.I really don't think it's crazy to expect elite athletes to know the rules of their sport, whether that sport is track and field or otherwise.
Let me put it this way. When this coach goes to his boss and he has to explain to them why his athlete was DQ'd and the university is no longer sending a capable and deserving athlete to Worlds - do you think that boss is going to accept the excuse "this 19 year old college freshman should have known the rules, it's not my fault"? Would you accept that excuse?
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Fin wrote:
FatSlowLurker wrote:
What is the mechanism by which a collegiate athlete is supposed to learn the rules? Do they go look up the rules and study them themselves? Is any normal athlete expected to do that? In my admittedly limited experience they normally learn them from their coaches.
I haven't competed in the collegiate system but I have competed at the national level in my home country. Yes I read the rules, and I would encourage other athletes to do the same. Knowing the actual rules of competition is important for avoiding surprises when a competition is run differently than your local competition (which can sometimes be more lenient. Case in point: NCAAs) and also important for being able to advocate for yourself in competition. Examples of being able to advocate yourself:
* You've been DQ'd but you want to protest this ruling. You need to know who to protest to and how it needs to happen. e.g. Is it important that I raise a protest to a referee before I leave the field of play or can I just escalate to a protest committee within a certain time after the completion of the race? If you need to protest before leaving the field of play, you won't have the opportunity to get guidance from your coach on how to act.* You are given an instruction by an official and you know that it is against the rules. You need to be able to explain to them why you're not complying with their instruction. (This has happened to me with relay changeover positioning.)
* You may want to call out when someone else is violating the rules. For instance you might want to make the officials aware that someone in your race is wearing illegal shoes ;) You could argue that it's not a great show of sportsmanship to "snitch" on a competitor but at least by knowing the rules you're empowered to make that decision.I really don't think it's crazy to expect elite athletes to know the rules of their sport, whether that sport is track and field or otherwise.
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