I think the 10 min man easily takes it because at 5 mins, that guy will never get a true long run.
If you're worried that 10 mins is too slow and you'll lose speed, just run part of your runs up steep hills. You'll keep the slow pace but get a bit of speed work.
I think you need to bump up the 400m warm up or Vinny is for sure gonna get injured. Also, when is the last time Vinny ran a 5 min mile? If he is really 2 years out of competitive running, he might only be getting in 10 to 15 miles per week.
I think the 10 min man easily takes it because at 5 mins, that guy will never get a true long run.
If you're worried that 10 mins is too slow and you'll lose speed, just run part of your runs up steep hills. You'll keep the slow pace but get a bit of speed work.
I can't use hills in that way - we never settled on a specific vertical gain limit per mile, but doing huge hills or too many hills would be considered a violation of the rules.
I think you need to bump up the 400m warm up or Vinny is for sure gonna get injured. Also, when is the last time Vinny ran a 5 min mile? If he is really 2 years out of competitive running, he might only be getting in 10 to 15 miles per week.
I'll discuss this with the council. He is already allowed unlimited drills, but I would be amenable to increasing the warm up - I really don't see it making a big difference from an aerobic development standpoint, so I don't think it would put him at an advantage beyond preventing injury.
In my opinion, this is the real limiting factor for me. Sure, you can essentially run forever at 10:00/mi and rack up 100+ mile weeks - but 10:00/mi is just sooooo slow. Just 12 miles takes a full 2 hours at that pace. So from a practical standpoint, I think it will be difficult to run much more than 60 miles per week. I start my first full time job next week, so I don't have unlimited time to hit big mileage either.
So that might level the playing field more than I'd like. But, maybe what's important is the time itself and not the mileage anyway...
Very good point. 10 minute miling is so slow it will be hard to run high mileage.
"Alright, I was thinking about this on my run today: you either have to run every run at 5:00/mi pace, or every run at 10:00/mi pace. You are training for a marathon. Which gets you the better time?"
So read the message from a former teammate in our XC alumni group chat. Debate quickly ensued.
"Easy, 5:00/mi - just break it up into reps," I replied. "Infinite threshold glitch."
"No, only one run per day," he clarified, "and no breaks allowed."
After some back and forth, I settled on 10:00/mi. It's simple physiology: the marathon is a long race, and mileage is king. Just run huge volumes and you'll easily beat someone running 5:00/mi 20 miles per week.
Others chimed in, gave their opinion. Enter Vinny.
"I think 5:00/mi wins and that's a hill I'll die on," he declared.
"Well, you're just wrong," I retorted.
Barely a moment later, Vinny replied - "I'll bet you $100 I can beat you in a marathon if I only train 5:00/mi or faster and you only train 10:00/mi or slower."
I was shocked. In all the years I've known him, I had never known Vinny to bet that kind of money. "I'll bet you a dollar..." was the common refrain back in college, a wager often followed by an outrageous challenge easily worth hundreds of times more money. But today: one hundred dollars. This meant Vinny was confident.
I texted back.
"I'll take that bet."
We immediately began negotiating rules and terms, with our other teammates moderating. No cross training allowed. We would each have pace buffers. There was some contentious back and forth about limitations on hills in the 10:00/mi runner's training. So on and so forth. We identified and plugged every loophole we could think of.
In 3-4 months time, we'll meet at an agreed upon marathon to race head to head and settle the debate once and for all. Whoever beats the other will win a cool $100, so the stakes are astoundingly moderate to low.
We'll use this thread to continually give updates on our training, thoughts on our progress, and - eventually - report the results. In the meantime, review the rules, peruse our competitor profiles, and debate among yourselves on who will win. I will also attempt to clarify any questions.
THE RULES
One run per day; no doubles.
All runs must be continuous; no reps.
Instantaneous pace cannot exceed pace limit by more than 30 sec/mile (i.e. at no point may Vinny run slower than 5:30/mi, nor me faster than 9:30/mi)
No single mile split (or fraction of a mile) may exceed the pace limit by more than 10 sec/mile (i.e. Vinny's slowest allowable split is 5:10; my fastest allowable split is 9:50).
I may not abuse vertical gain outside of reasonable geographic conditions.
I may not do strides.
Vinny is allotted 400m each for warm up and cool down for injury prevention purposes.
I am allotted 400m of drills per day.
Both competitors may do weight training, but no other forms of cross training
THE COMPETITORS
Vinny, the 5:00/mi runner
Back in his prime, Vinny was the school record holder of our university in multiple events, boasting PRs of sub-8:15 in the 3K and sub-14:00 in the 5K, was a D1 all-region and P5 all-conference runner in cross, and once ran a 3:04 marathon while consuming twelve (12) standard drink's worth of alcohol en route (you can read more about that exploit in a past thread). But that was two years ago. Today, you're much more likely to see Vinny on the local rec league circuit dunking on middle aged dads than on the track.
Me, the 10:00/mi runner
I'm more recently removed from my running prime. Just this past May I completed my 6th and final year of collegiate eligibility. I have more modest achievements, having run a sub-14:30 5K PR in April and earning all-conference (G5) honors in both the track 10K and cross. I did however, once beat Vinny in an outdoor 3K race at a March meet of exactly zero consequence. Also of note: Vinny never won a high school state championship - I won 3. The states we lived in don't matter and will not be revealed.
TL;DR - For the next 3-4 months, I will be doing all of my runs at 10:00/mi or slower; my old teammate will be doing all of his runs at 5:00/mi. We will then race a marathon and see who wins.
My answer is whoever has gained less weight since graduation.
You'll win. I've done essentially that training and maybe even slower than 10:00 pace for almost everything and ran a marathon on a hilly, part gravel course in 2:54 (before supershoes) at age 43. I was on 2:48 pace until my legs cramped up in the final miles. Maybe could have been 2:48 on a flat course? Well at least 2:54 and then subtract the supershoe boost. How old are you guys?
As for why I trained like that, I did the marathon just to tour the course with no time goals. I was basically dog jogging my dog and all my GF's many dogs in the woods every day in "training".
This post was edited 6 minutes after it was posted.
You guys think the 10 min guy will win this bc of volume but I counter running at 10 min pace is super boring unless you are a beginner. If the 10 min guy trains on technical trails, he could get considerable volume, I guess.
I predict they are both at about 20 mpw within 3 weeks.
You did well to stack the odds so much in your favour. If you were doing this on 5 min miles you'd obviously do it as reps and would double even if one of them was extremely short. Even triple. But no reps, no doubles, and only 400m warmup(!) gives him no chance. If he wins (and not because you blow up) it'll be because he has much more talent. You should easily win this after a ton of volume at 9:50 plus some hills, drills, weights, (plyos?), and running into a headwind as often as you can. And wearing a weighted vest. There's no way you can lose this.
Just saw that you're starting your first full time job next week. That could be significant. It's quite a transition and could wipe you out after a week. Evens up the odds a bit though.
You guys think the 10 min guy will win this bc of volume but I counter running at 10 min pace is super boring unless you are a beginner. If the 10 min guy trains on technical trails, he could get considerable volume, I guess.
I predict they are both at about 20 mpw within 3 weeks.
It’s a decent point: being limited to 10:00 pace would make daily hour+ (just 6+ miles, yikes) runs a tedious chore. I would counter this by putting an emphasis on a weekly long run where I build up to 4-5 hours on a hilly, scenic route, possibly with music which I ordinarily never do. Put much of the focus into a once/week endeavor and try to sleepwalk through your other 4-8 milers throughout the week.
I think OP should win this unless Vinny cheats. If Vinny was given 6:00/mile instead like someone suggested, he would surely win in a complete rout.
Great concept for a fun challenge. I just wonder if 6 and 9 minutes would work better than 5 and 10, which seem a bit extreme.
It depends on how far Vinny has slid I guess, but it’s not unreasonable to think a guy who ran sub-14 a couple years ago could build to decent mileage with 20 mile LRs at 6:00 pace, which would set him up to crush the 9:00 slogger.
Run two hours per day, 120 continuous mins. Every 12 minutes do 40 meter sprint drill. (10 x 40 = 400 meters of daily permitted drills). Fartlek for the win. You keep some speed and elevate your heart rate ten times each run for a bit more challenge in the 1-2 mins after that sprint, so 10-20 mins of a different stimulus than the slow running each day.
Run two hours per day, 120 continuous mins. Every 12 minutes do 40 meter sprint drill. (10 x 40 = 400 meters of daily permitted drills). Fartlek for the win. You keep some speed and elevate your heart rate ten times each run for a bit more challenge in the 1-2 mins after that sprint, so 10-20 mins of a different stimulus than the slow running each day.
Nice idea but the rules say instantaneous pace can't go over 9:30. I.e. he can't do drills that amount to fast running while doing his 10:00 running, only before or after.
He could do other drills during a run like bounding, high knees, fast feet that didn't increase the pace, which may be better than doing them outside a run as you get 1-2 minutes added benefit as you said. Still only 400m worth though. Maybe some ridiculously exaggerated drills/plyos while running, like max effort vertical hops. Maybe some running backwards too. The possibilities are endless, unlike poor Vinny who can only run himself into the ground.