i can't believe that. where is the science that a better cushioned shoe will take more out of your legs?
i run barefoot often. 10k barefoot: the next day, sore. run 42k in supershoes, the next day, no problem.
Why would there be science? I am stating this is what happens when I wear those shoes. Regardless of what the science shows, this is what happens to ME. Not to people in general, to me. There will always be outliers. Science describes what happens to most - kills 99% of bacteria, 98% effective, flipping a coin results in heads 50% of the time, etc. Your belief won't change the way I run, my foot strike, or foot shape, and thus the results will be about the same in any "super" shoe I run in.
yes that's the same reason i run barefoot occasionally. but running in flat shoes regularly, i worry about achilles and maybe calf injuries.
Running in flats cured my achilles issues. When I was young and used regular trainers I had all kind of foot problems and ankle problems. They were gone within a few weeks of switching to flats. I do have occasional calf or foot issues, but I think these are despite running in flats, not because of it and its like a flare up for a few days every 2-3 years that goes away.
Topo ST. The best minimalist shoes out there nowadays. I use them as a training tool now, but in the past I use them as daily trainers. Less foam than a free 3.0, fairly durable.
I don’t hate them as I have never tried them. However to me it’s not what I’m looking for, I want to feel the ground and let the feet work, speed is secondary in this case.
Back to the question at hand: Don't sweat the few extra millimeters dude, just grab a few pairs of Saucony Kinvaras. Previous models can be had for $60-90 online regularly.
Are you talking about running Dragonfly XC on the road, just removing the spikes?
I also enjoyed the racing flats more, especially Flyknit racer, and Lunaracer back in the day. Run with Streakfly at the moment and they are closest thing that works for me.
I can make a few suggestions. One is to see if you can use cross country flats. There aren't loads of those on the market anymore but Saucony has two and New Balance and Nike each have one.
I am not familiar with that type of shoes. Do I just search for "cross country flats"?
You could do a search for something like "men's cross country racing flats" and see what comes up. At Runningwarehouse there's a sidebar listing various sub categories of running shoes one of which is cross country shoes. If you click on that you'll see what they have. There's a section for spiked shoes, the bigger of the two, and another for cross country flats. I think Holabird might have a similar thing and maybe Roadrunner Sports does too.
I had a couple more thoughts since that last post. One is that most shoe companies make "jogging" shoes or "entry level" shoes. Many such shoes are not that different from the kind you seem to want. They're maybe a bit thicker at the soles but not by all that much. And they are also cheap as these things go. Lots of running shops don't carry them but the big box stores do. It couldn't hurt to pop into a Kohls or a Shoe Department and check a few models out.
The other thought is a bit more off the wall but worth considering. There's an MD on the faculty at McGill University called Steve Robbins. At least he was. He may have retired by now. But he's spent much of his career researching the relationships between running shoes and runners' injuries. He's not at all,a fan of high tech running shoes. He thinks, based on actual research, that cheaper is much better then expensive, and that barefoot is even better. Arthur Lydiard often cited him when he was on the topic of shoes. Steve does a bit of running, don't know how much. But I once asked him what he used for running shoes given that the weather in Montreal isn't compatible with year round barefoot running. He said he uses indoor soccer shoes, specifically the adidas Samba. Steve has a website with lots of stuff about running shoes.
I am not familiar with that type of shoes. Do I just search for "cross country flats"?
You could do a search for something like "men's cross country racing flats" and see what comes up. At Runningwarehouse there's a sidebar listing various sub categories of running shoes one of which is cross country shoes. If you click on that you'll see what they have. There's a section for spiked shoes, the bigger of the two, and another for cross country flats. I think Holabird might have a similar thing and maybe Roadrunner Sports does too.
I had a couple more thoughts since that last post. One is that most shoe companies make "jogging" shoes or "entry level" shoes. Many such shoes are not that different from the kind you seem to want. They're maybe a bit thicker at the soles but not by all that much. And they are also cheap as these things go. Lots of running shops don't carry them but the big box stores do. It couldn't hurt to pop into a Kohls or a Shoe Department and check a few models out.
The other thought is a bit more off the wall but worth considering. There's an MD on the faculty at McGill University called Steve Robbins. At least he was. He may have retired by now. But he's spent much of his career researching the relationships between running shoes and runners' injuries. He's not at all,a fan of high tech running shoes. He thinks, based on actual research, that cheaper is much better then expensive, and that barefoot is even better. Arthur Lydiard often cited him when he was on the topic of shoes. Steve does a bit of running, don't know how much. But I once asked him what he used for running shoes given that the weather in Montreal isn't compatible with year round barefoot running. He said he uses indoor soccer shoes, specifically the adidas Samba. Steve has a website with lots of stuff about running shoes.
Running in flats cured my achilles issues. When I was young and used regular trainers I had all kind of foot problems and ankle problems. They were gone within a few weeks of switching to flats. I do have occasional calf or foot issues, but I think these are despite running in flats, not because of it and its like a flare up for a few days every 2-3 years that goes away.
after running barefoot my achilles also feels better in the days after as long as I warmed up properly and wasn't fatigued prior to the run, so i can believe this. i also think stressing tendons makes them stronger. but i think overusing tendons causes the injury in the first place, which is why i cant get on board with regularly running in flats or barefoot, simply because you are more likely to get an overuse injury.
for sure there is probably a balance and a happy medium.
Brooks Hyperion Tempo (not the Elite, which is their carbon fibre version) are pretty much an old school style racing flat, and Brooks themselves are one of the most eco friendly shoe companies out there I believe, so should also tick the low carbon footprint box.
Topo ST. The best minimalist shoes out there nowadays. I use them as a training tool now, but in the past I use them as daily trainers. Less foam than a free 3.0, fairly durable.
YES! Ignore what other posters have said, this type of shoe is not completely extinct! It's getting closer to that since Altra got rid of the Vanish-R and chonked up the Escalante, that brand has really sold out and lost quality since being taken over by VFC. Altra's last good minimalist shoe is the elusive Escalante Racer, available for online purchase only. I prefer the Topo ST-5 though, they made the newest version thinner than the previous one! Very refreshing to see.
I don’t hate them as I have never tried them. However to me it’s not what I’m looking for, I want to feel the ground and let the feet work, speed is secondary in this case.
This is the approach that more runners, especially those that do not have professional contracts and do not represent their country at the global stage, should take. Effort > pace in training, the only time you should be searching for that extra boost of energy return from shoes should be for a race and MAYBE a few key workouts. You shouldn't care about whether you'd run a tempo at 6:00 pace in thin, boring trainers or if you could hit 5:50 pace in super shoes. If, for example, the effort is the same, then the training adaptation for these similar paces will be the same. So you might as well pick the shoes that are more durable and healthier for you.
The sport has an unhealthy obsession with/dependence on fast times at the elite level, and that attitude trickles down to training at all levels, especially with Strava and GPS watches taking over. Day to day training is more socially performative and there is a greater focus on pace than ever before, which prompts people to train in maximalist shoes or even carbon plated racing shoes. It's gotten to the point that every brand has a niche to fill for a "plated trainer", so that you never have to run without the help of some sort of plate levering you forward.
Running in bouncy shoes obviously feels good, and running barefoot or with no cushion kinda hurts for most people. But if that's the case, you should use at least some amount of minimally cushioned running not only for overall health, but as an important diagnostic tool to get instant feedback about parts of your chain that may need to be strengthened. Because if those underlying issues exist, they will eventually creep up on you, even in maximalist shoes.
And to clarify, I think super shoes are great for races and bouncing back from races quicker, and I understand that they objectively make you faster. I just think they should really only be used for races, and that for the other 95% we should be training our feet and legs to be strong, so that they can handle any kind of shoe.
Sooo, after an intense 24h research period, I just bought a pair of Vivobarefoot Primus Knit Lite from Revivo as they were pretty cheap so I figured give them a try. I didn't know this forum was a US based one when I wrote my first post, but you have some interesting shoes over there. Many can be found both in US and Europe, but I've looked into Vivobarefoot, Freet, Lenko, Xero, Altra, Allbirds, Icebug (local for me), Nnormal, Brooks and so on... In addition, the sustainability played a big part in my decision as well and that I don't want to buy stuff made in China. Just like Kvothe pointed out from the start, there's very few that actually make shoes in the mid segment of sole thickness and drop. But when looking at those, I thought, why not just test a real barefoot shoe. So now I will and will probably think it's hard for the typical tarmac runs I usually do. But then I'm trying to convince myself that I will run more trail with the barefoot instead, which I acually enjoy more, but I have to run on tarmac before I come to the muddy forest trails. Let's see how it all turns out.
You're welcome. And I'd forgotten that New Balance still sells the Minimus as someone else pointed out. But I have only seen the trail version listed. It's been ages since I've seen the road version anywhere.
Brooks Hyperion Tempo (not the Elite, which is their carbon fibre version) are pretty much an old school style racing flat, and Brooks themselves are one of the most eco friendly shoe companies out there I believe, so should also tick the low carbon footprint box.
They are not. The brooks hyperion tempo has a 28 mm stack height. Its only better than all the rest of the high stack height shoes.