You care more than your brother. If your brother truly wanted to get better mornings and weekends are free running. I promise you a 3-4 mile morning shakeout everyday and he would be light years better. He can do that on his own.
You care more than your brother. If your brother truly wanted to get better mornings and weekends are free running. I promise you a 3-4 mile morning shakeout everyday and he would be light years better. He can do that on his own.
You do not understand how to develop an athlete. And did you not read the entire post? Do you understand the intensity that he is running at practice? Did you read that he trains on the days he doesn't have practice? A 3-4 mile shakeout every morning is not the answer to this. He is not at the point where he can handle shakeouts every day. And my approach is not to force him to run. I simply lay out a training plan that is going to make him better and he does the work. He loves running. It is extremely ignorant of you to assume that my brother doesn't want to run and I am forcing it on him.
Where are you running 5k races for xc in high school? And where could they make cuts for xc, in high school? Is this a private school of some sort?
Cuts have been going on in high school XC and track for awhile for different reasons. Tim Butler...when he was at Dana Hills said something like the 3Cs were the key to his program. I can't remember all 3, but it was sort of like colors, competition, and cuts. The cuts part kept kids running most of the year. I believe he kept 60 boys. Some schools have to cut kids, because they don't have enough money for all of the buses or coaches. I know some coaches that have cut returning runners if they missed a certain percentage of summer practices. Some schools in my district are rumored to have a need to cut boys for Title 9 purposes. I have no idea what that is even about and that's reason number 153 why I will never coach in this district again. One prominent coach in CA said, "If I've got 150 athletes on my team, I'm lucky if 30-40 of them are actually invested and matter in the progress of the program." There's something to be said about how cuts can benefit a program and I'm sure those other 110-120 that he's referring have other motives and are not motivated to follow the Letsrun message board.
You care more than your brother. If your brother truly wanted to get better mornings and weekends are free running. I promise you a 3-4 mile morning shakeout everyday and he would be light years better. He can do that on his own.
the OP is obviously talking about his KID brother who’s barely starting HS running. No 14-15 year old just knows to shakeout in the mornings or utilize their off weekends for a long run. Especially when the post made it clear the kid is a novice. They just do what they are told by their coaches, and this is a kid who happens to have a less than ideal coach. Crazy you can read all that and just think “eh, kid doesn’t want it bad enough I guess”
You care more than your brother. If your brother truly wanted to get better mornings and weekends are free running. I promise you a 3-4 mile morning shakeout everyday and he would be light years better. He can do that on his own.
the OP is obviously talking about his KID brother who’s barely starting HS running. No 14-15 year old just knows to shakeout in the mornings or utilize their off weekends for a long run. Especially when the post made it clear the kid is a novice. They just do what they are told by their coaches, and this is a kid who happens to have a less than ideal coach. Crazy you can read all that and just think “eh, kid doesn’t want it bad enough I guess”
Then run more he doesn’t need some fancy workout at the point he is at. He just needs to run more milage. At his age just being consistent and incorporating some extra running will help him tremendously. Trust me a 25min 5k doesn’t need some crazy workout structure just run more and be more consistent.
If your brother is only a sophomore you could have him train on his own and run for a club if there is one. Otherwise have him run road races with friends in the same situation. You can make that distance coach look silly. But forgive him. Do that for yourself and also realize that in a few months things could change, like maybe those coaches will learn they need some guidance or they will hate the experience and quit.
So here's the deal, my younger brother has been running for about 3 years. I have coached him for about 2 and a half. He first started running to lose weight as he was obese, and then found himself really liking the sport. When I first started coaching him, he was a 35 min 5ker. After a year he ran his first sub 25 and was showing a lot of potential now that he had lost more weight and was starting to develop some strength. When he ran sub 25, it was the May before he went to high school. He was super excited to finally run on a team and I was as well. Training was going very well with only a few minor hiccups. He ran his first XC meet in low 23's, and felt like he had more to give. We were excited for the season.
I tried to keep my coaching to a minimum so as not to be disrespectful to his actual coach, but it was a disaster. He did not improve one second throughout the entire season. His coach had no clue what he was doing, and would have then run erratically. Once that horrific season was over, I developed a winter program (his HS does not have indoor track) that focused on strength and consistency. He improved tremendously by late January, and was tempoing his 5k PR. This was very exciting because he was still in the base phase, and was clearly showing a breakthrough in fitness. I then constructed the second phase which focused on plenty of threshold work and speed introduction. However, a sudden torn growth plate stopped him in his tracks. Luckily, it wasn't that bad and he only had to take 5 weeks off of running. In the meantime, he cross trained on an elliptical and kept the aerobic intensity up.
Once he was ready to run again, outdoor track practice had started up. Thankfully, the XC coach did not coach distance for track, and he was told that he would be able to do most of his own training. Boy was that not the truth.
The first practice was fine. He was able to do easy mileage as he had planned, and everything seemed like it would be ok. The next practice is where it started to go downhill. The track coach, who coaches sprints, jumps, throws AND distance, had the distance runners do a lap warmup, then rip a 400 and two 200s with a combined 20 minutes rest. The next practice was even worse. The coach told them to NOT DO A WARMUP and run an 800 METER TIME TRIAL. This is what set me off the edge. Following the 800 they did a 400 and two 200s basically all out. THE VERY NEXT DAY (sorry for caps but I must convey my anger) the coach had them do a ONE LAP WARMUP and rip two 200s, an 800, and one 200. This is outrageous. The only time my brother can get mileage is when there isn't practice, and he has practice 3 days a week. He only runs 6 days so that is only 3 other days for a long run and easy miles. This is not sustainable. Every single practice is like this, one lap warmup then rip some ridiculous short interval. My brother had to beg the coach to let him warmup today as they were doing another 800 "time trial." Coach only let him do one lap.
My brother is very frustrated and so am I. His XC coach was bad enough and now this guy? My brother has so much potential as I was and still am a very good runner, but it is very difficult to reach that potential with such inconsistent, sporadic, and downright idiotic methods of training. It pains me to even call what his coaches are doing "training." My brother even confronted him about the daily workouts and the answer he got was "I'm making cuts at some point," THERE ARE FIVE DISTANCE RUNNERS ON THE TEAM. And if you couldn't tell, they guy is a sprint coach pretending to coach distance. I'm sorry for the long post but this I had to vent this out. If you read the entire thing please tell me what you think and what you would do in this situation. I feel like I should meet with the coach to discuss training. Not only do I want my brother to have good training that makes him better, but I want other kids to as well. None of the kids on his team have ever had any real training and it shows. How are they to ever appreciate the sport when they associate it with inconsistency and lunacy?
What if your brother does the coach's workout but modifies it so that he can stay after practice and finish what you place for him? He can treat the school workout as a warmup. Don't go all out on these ridiculous workouts just run them as a fast warmup. There's a lot of bad high school coaches but there are also good ones. If this doesn't work what are the options for him to transfer to a different school? Are there any schools with great cross country programs near? He's young so its not too late to change schools.
I do not care what event you do, be it the shot put, pole vault, or tidily-winks. You had better warmup! I would discuss this with the coach briefly and then watch to see if he complies. THEN go to the A.D.
I would love to volunteer (and wouldn't hesitate given the opportunity), but the schedule I'm currently working makes it impossible. Which is frustrating because I want to coach collegiately someday and need to get some experience, but it would mean quitting my current job which cannot happen right now.
yes, I can see that being a problem. What about just offering a coaching program for the coach? Like, "hey, here is my credentials...I'd like to help anyway I can...I put this together for my brother and think it would work for the distance team..." Maybe your brother can even lead the workouts or you can help only on workout days that fit with your work schedule (1-2 x a week). I only coach during workout days because I have a younger child. Easy days are on the kids and they know what to do based on our calendar website.
Other option is have your brother run after or before practices with you can just slack this coaches workouts. Claim he can't come certain days due to clubs or other activities. We don't turn away any kids excuse here...
Unfortunately today, thousands of middle school and HS coaches in all event areas don't have a clue to what they are doing and that is inexcusable. There is absolutely no reason not to have some basics about the event you plan to coach. There are tons of resources available to get some basics or just speak or ask other coaches for some basic workouts for the event and time of the year.
If I were you, I would set up a meeting with the coach (away from any of the kids). The coach mostly likely has never coached the sport. Tell him your credentials and explain the progress that you had. Offer him some training basics but be respectful and let him make the decision.
My little sister-in-law went through something similar when she was in high school. She was in 6th grade when I married her older sister, and she was just getting into running. I was a decent runner in HS/college and offered to coach her in the off seasons. We basically went though what you described with your brother. Every off season, she would get in great shape following my training. Then XC or track would start, and the coach would have her drastically cut mileage and ramp up intensity. They at least had "easy" days where they would run a few miles, but the coach insisted that boys NEVER run slower than 7 min pace, and girls NEVER slower than 8 min pace. Keep in mind for some of the boys/girls on the team, those paces were close to their 5K race pace. My sister-in-law would usually set a PR in the first race or two of a season, then get injured because of the ridiculous all-out interval sessions. She'd have to take a couple of weeks off, then try to salvage the season by the time the state meet rolled around. She managed to stay healthy her junior year of XC and ran like 20:10 for 5K, but it's frustrating to think of how much better she could have been with a decent coach. And it wasn't just her that got injured most seasons, nearly every girl on the team would get injured mid-season.
Her best "track season" was her junior year spring of 2020, when the season was cancelled because of Covid. I just coached her remotely and had her go to the local track for a time trial every week or so. All of her "PRs" from 800, 1600, and 3200 are from that spring. I think she ran just over 5:30 for 1600, don't remember the other times. But of course next year as a senior she got injured during the season and never got to better those time trial performances.
So here's the deal, my younger brother has been running for about 3 years. I have coached him for about 2 and a half. He first started running to lose weight as he was obese, and then found himself really liking the sport. When I first started coaching him, he was a 35 min 5ker. After a year he ran his first sub 25 and was showing a lot of potential now that he had lost more weight and was starting to develop some strength. When he ran sub 25, it was the May before he went to high school. He was super excited to finally run on a team and I was as well. Training was going very well with only a few minor hiccups. He ran his first XC meet in low 23's, and felt like he had more to give. We were excited for the season.
I tried to keep my coaching to a minimum so as not to be disrespectful to his actual coach, but it was a disaster. He did not improve one second throughout the entire season. His coach had no clue what he was doing, and would have then run erratically. Once that horrific season was over, I developed a winter program (his HS does not have indoor track) that focused on strength and consistency. He improved tremendously by late January, and was tempoing his 5k PR. This was very exciting because he was still in the base phase, and was clearly showing a breakthrough in fitness. I then constructed the second phase which focused on plenty of threshold work and speed introduction. However, a sudden torn growth plate stopped him in his tracks. Luckily, it wasn't that bad and he only had to take 5 weeks off of running. In the meantime, he cross trained on an elliptical and kept the aerobic intensity up.
Once he was ready to run again, outdoor track practice had started up. Thankfully, the XC coach did not coach distance for track, and he was told that he would be able to do most of his own training. Boy was that not the truth.
The first practice was fine. He was able to do easy mileage as he had planned, and everything seemed like it would be ok. The next practice is where it started to go downhill. The track coach, who coaches sprints, jumps, throws AND distance, had the distance runners do a lap warmup, then rip a 400 and two 200s with a combined 20 minutes rest. The next practice was even worse. The coach told them to NOT DO A WARMUP and run an 800 METER TIME TRIAL. This is what set me off the edge. Following the 800 they did a 400 and two 200s basically all out. THE VERY NEXT DAY (sorry for caps but I must convey my anger) the coach had them do a ONE LAP WARMUP and rip two 200s, an 800, and one 200. This is outrageous. The only time my brother can get mileage is when there isn't practice, and he has practice 3 days a week. He only runs 6 days so that is only 3 other days for a long run and easy miles. This is not sustainable. Every single practice is like this, one lap warmup then rip some ridiculous short interval. My brother had to beg the coach to let him warmup today as they were doing another 800 "time trial." Coach only let him do one lap.
My brother is very frustrated and so am I. His XC coach was bad enough and now this guy? My brother has so much potential as I was and still am a very good runner, but it is very difficult to reach that potential with such inconsistent, sporadic, and downright idiotic methods of training. It pains me to even call what his coaches are doing "training." My brother even confronted him about the daily workouts and the answer he got was "I'm making cuts at some point," THERE ARE FIVE DISTANCE RUNNERS ON THE TEAM. And if you couldn't tell, the guy is a sprint coach pretending to coach distance. I'm sorry for the long post but this I had to vent this out. If you read the entire thing please tell me what you think and what you would do in this situation. I feel like I should meet with the coach to discuss training. Not only do I want my brother to have good training that makes him better, but I want other kids to as well. None of the kids on his team have ever had any real training and it shows. How are they to ever appreciate the sport when they associate it with inconsistency and lunacy?
There are a lot of bad coaches out there. But most programs pay HS coaches less than minimum wage for their time commitment and coaching HS track is a major time commitment, which is why most people, including you, can’t and don’t do it. Any decent, caring, competent high school coach should be showered with praise and thanked every time you see them, as they are doing a very hard job for essentially no reward. I agree with the poster that suggests that you volunteer to craft a training program. If he’s not insecure, that might work. Otherwise, maybe do a fundraiser to see if you can raise the funds to incentivize someone that knows what they’re doing to do the job. But when demanding jobs pay crap, we shouldn’t be surprised when the people that take those jobs aren’t exactly the cream of the crop.
Sounds like the running program stinks. I find it hard to believe they have enough distance runners to cut folks, but, eh, sounds like the track coach is a moron. Probably less worry about cuts with XC, just rubbish training.
My recommendation:
1. Your brother should do his own training (likely with your help) and ignore these "coaches."
2. Your brother should participate in practices, and the drills, but do so at paces you set. (I.E., instead of going all out for the 200s and 400s, maybe set a race-pace to threshold-pace effort for your brother, and get him doing that.)
3. Your brother should ignore the coach if he dogs him for his "effort." If the coach becomes too toxic, drop track.
4. Same with XC—do his own training, but participate, at his own set paces, during practice. Drop XC if it is toxic. (Too much toxicity in this sport [see so much on these boards]—your brother should do what he loves.)
5. Coros, Garmin, and other watches with structured workouts and pace-trackers could be helpful here, budget permitting. (Been some nice Garmin deals lately on Forerunner 55s and such.)
5. If forces to drop XC and Track, or even if not, I'd look into the local running scene. Hit up the road 5Ks, trail runs, road 10ks, etc. See if there is a USATF or AAU club nearby (that is hopefully less toxic).
My daughter runs track and XC in middle school and does enjoy it, but she doesn't get a lot of good input on her training during the season. She's the top female distance runner, and that's part of why. The teams are not as toxic as the one your brother is on, but she's not improving her training anyhow.
What I do for her is this:
1. Training blocks target the beginning of the season as an "A Race" for training block purposes. I want her to be fit, and have good speed, going INTO the season. (You're really only nibbling around the edges in-season anyhow; it's pre-season where your season is built.)
2. During the season, I make sure she is checking herself for wear and tear based on what her coaches have her doing, and make sure she is recovering. Where necessary during the week, she and I discuss supplementation with easy (80/20 Endurance Zone 1) or endurance (80/20 Endurance Zone 2) runs for base.
3. Depending on the need, we may work in specific speed work during weekends, or she may go do long runs with her mother (who does half-marathons, marathons, and ultras).
4. Otherwise, I let her have fun with the team and her friends, and advise her to generally listen to the coach. I do prescribe pace times if her coach insists she do specific workout types (usually threshold).
We also participate in the state USATF meets—XC and track. (AAU is not so big here, but back in my home state growing up my club team did both USATF and AAU.)
We also do a good mix of road races for fun with the family.
The focus is meant to make sure she keeps having fun, enjoying it, and doesn't get burnt out or ground down. That's the goal, at least. (Plus, to make sure I don't turn into stage dad, or baseball dad, and go all stupid and toxic myself! Lol.)
She and I have talked about the toxicity in the sport, and how teams can be negatives sometime. Mental health is key. Focusing on the joy of the running is the key.
And she knows she can walk away from the team if necessary and still keep running. I hope where you're brother is located there are plenty of run club type races and what-not he can enjoy outside the school setting.
The down side is it seems the track coach is an idiot, and track may not be salvageable. (What you're describing I think is not unusual. Most high school track teams focus more on sprints than distance. There are valid track meet point reasons for this, but sometimes that focus can be toxic.)
So maybe track isn't the way to go. I did XC in HS in the fall, and where I lived soccer was in the spring. (Big football state; the fields were for football in the fall, dangit! Lol.) So I never had the trouble of navigating HS track. Still, I was welcomed back—with a number of my fellow soccer players—each year for XC! (Our county only allowed you to do one sport per quarter.)
Finally, I can sense your frustration. However, remember that this is your brother's running career, not yours. Talk to him about his frustration, what his goals are, and make sure you are aligning with him. Just like I need to (and want to) check myself with my daughter, and not place my ambitions on her or try and re-live my youth through her running, you don't want to do anything similar to your brother.
I do recommend he strongly consider looking beyond the school setting, though. Life's too damn short to not enjoy the run opportunities you have, and if you have rubbish coaches then just ignore them or avoid them by not participating in their mess.
(Seriously, there are a LOT of sports where the HS competitions are basically avoided. Swimming; tennis; even soccer and baseball /softball in some states with stronger club organizations. Basketball, too—AAU is crazy in basketball. Running in local races or even regional ones unattached doesn't make him less of a runner. And it may be more enjoyable.)
Good luck to you and your bro! I hope you and him can keep his joy of running going!
if there are 5 kids for 3 events from 800-3200 then he's not "cutting" anyone. he's "threatening to cut." surely you get the difference.
you're reading me the riot act about his training practices, calling it overtraining, when the distances are tiny for distance running. i get where in theory he's asking unusual things of a distance runner, which you're saying if done full speed would exhaust or hurt him to supplement. but saying you intended to supplement underlines the mileage wasn't the issue. so it's not overtraining as normally understood.
at which point, on a small distance contingent, the game is do select portions of the training at lower intensity than asked. if you are running less than many have to, and then doing the offending portions at lesser intensity, it works out as far less than most coaches demand. you can then easily supplement.
this only works out as "insane" if you do what he wants at the intensity he wants. even then i bet it would be fairly harmless for someone like me who was more of a sprint-oriented athlete.
i learned to do this because i dutifully followed XC coach instructions over an anemia cliff. i gave honest effort all the time. i had natural speed. response: if the coach won't pull the workout back, you dial your effort back. based on my XC experience that's what i did when my college soccer coach ran us into the ground. i showed up to practice. i did what he asked. i don't think i did it at the intensity he wanted, and he would sometimes get on me about it.
but i "started on saturdays," so to speak, in which case who cares about the rest. that's why i am like, what is he going to do, cut one of his 5 distance runners? particularly if you put up the times.
so you dial workout effort back a little then do your work on the side. because it doesn't sound like the mileage is that much. which is usually the tougher part when a coach overdoes it.
downvote me all you want. you aren't winning a head on battle with a HS coach unless they hit or molest or cuss your brother. you aren't being recruited much as a non-HS, slower runner (5+ mile it sounded like). you have to play the game. just play it your own way. i learned long ago my XC mistake was dutifully doing every mile at the demanded effort even as i felt worse and worse. so do it at a rate you think makes sense. otherwise it sounds like actually low mileage and you will have the energy to do your personal regimen. you're then responsible to self for getting to the desired results.
Well guys, my little brother will not be running track this season.
Today in gym he broke his shoulder when a kid playing soccer accidently sideswiped him when kicking the ball. My brother says he was playing basketball and they both were not paying attention. He tried to catch himself but his arm landed behind him causing the break. The doctor said he is out for a minimum of six weeks, and he can't do any type of cross training.
This is so tragic because he just came back from a torn growth plate which had him out for 5 weeks. Anyways, thank you all for your input on this thread. I'm going to do my best to keep him positive and let him know he will come back for cross country stronger and faster than ever.
i mean, sorry, but as a former XC person (albeit brief), a day consisting of warmup 2/8/2 cooldown would be a walk in the park. this wouldn't even be that hard as a sprint workout if the 8 was reasonably paced. and so on in terms of the workout. we had to do stuff like 6 mile intervals for time. you're beefing about an 8 for time? you just tank it a degree.
i mean, to me, the difference between trying to run, say, a 2 or a 2:30, would mean a lot. i might have one 2 in me. and feel it after. and not be in the mood to go run more later. i get that.
so run a 2:30-40. that i could repeat on command and was well below mile pace. or whatever your guy's equivalent is. stay with the last runner perhaps. is he going to cut both of you?
i think some of my response here is (a) i assume that anything asked of distance runners is expected to be done at "distance runner" pace, ie, not full sprint, more grooved and (b) emotions and grief aside, i look at what's being asked and it's really not a lot. it sounds like a 400/800 runner workout. which is a travesty if you run 3200 or 5k but should be easy mileage for someone who races that far. you just run it like a distance runner instead of a sprinter.
i mean, sorry, but as a former XC person (albeit brief), a day consisting of warmup 2/8/2 cooldown would be a walk in the park. this wouldn't even be that hard as a sprint workout if the 8 was reasonably paced. and so on in terms of the workout. we had to do stuff like 6 mile intervals for time. you're beefing about an 8 for time? you just tank it a degree.
i mean, to me, the difference between trying to run, say, a 2 or a 2:30, would mean a lot. i might have one 2 in me. and feel it after. and not be in the mood to go run more later. i get that.
so run a 2:30-40. that i could repeat on command and was well below mile pace. or whatever your guy's equivalent is. stay with the last runner perhaps. is he going to cut both of you?
i think some of my response here is (a) i assume that anything asked of distance runners is expected to be done at "distance runner" pace, ie, not full sprint, more grooved and (b) emotions and grief aside, i look at what's being asked and it's really not a lot. it sounds like a 400/800 runner workout. which is a travesty if you run 3200 or 5k but should be easy mileage for someone who races that far. you just run it like a distance runner instead of a sprinter.
That's the problem—you're presuming this coach has them do this at distance race pace, instead of sprint. Read the original post—it's full speed.
Sure, this is not a "lot" of volume, but you have to factor in intensity. Heck, even the Feed The Cats system doesn't do this much intensity, and that dude's (Tony Holler) has coached some fast 400m runners.
Lots of high intensity in a HS track season leads to injuries. Foot injuries. Shin splints. Quad injuries. Other injuries. It's just idiotic 80s-90s or current-day meathead training.
Plus, IF you do this rip-it run training, you have to dial back your endurance runs to manage this or risk, once again, injuries on legs weakened by the high intensity.
So, yeah, a distance runner could handle this volume, until they're injured because it's a high intensity and all out.
That stinks—sorry to hear about the injury. My kiddos keep coming back from middle school gym talking about the knuckleheads in their gym class, and the gym teachers providing little-to-no-oversight. Makes me realizes how lucky I was with my good gym teachers in HS.
May be, for his running, a blessing. Just keep the training up and target some road races if you can. (The pricing can add up, though, I know. Any ParkRuns near you? Could be a gun, low-stakes way to get some group runs in if there are. Not as many, sadly, in the US. We travel 45 minutes to our closest.)
I will say I always preferred road races and cross country to track. Once did a 10k on track when I was club running back in 6th grade. It didn't help it was at 7 AM in the morning, too. That was when I learned how to fall asleep running . . . sleep on the straights, wake up enough to negotiate the bends. Lol.
Maybe see if there are some trail races about, too. UltraSignUp has some races that are not actually Ultras (or which have shorter distance races along with the Ultras) from time to time. Plus some fun virtual challenges (like the Yeti 24).
The toxic folk here will talk about all that being Hobby Jogging and what-not, but whatever—just get out and run and have fun.
Hope he heals quickly! My wife broke a toe on a trail race last year and she hated the wait before she could run again.