Didn't have to go through female puberty either. See the problem?
While 5-9 is very good for a high school kid, that is nothing extraordinary. Several HS girls have already cleared 6 ft this season, and Vashti Cunningham was jumping 6-5 at her age.
So I don't think there is any problem. She is just a talented high jumper. Not as talented as Cunningham or Mahuchikh (who also jumped 6-5 at age 17).
i sincerely don't understand the argument behind allowing genetic males to compete in these sports. is the point that "it doesn't matter" and "for the sake of inclusivity"?
does it not matter?
and, is there another way to create inclusivity?
or i could just be missing it. the gender evolution has taken me by surprise, and i'm not yet accustomed to it. i have no issue with the evolution in general, but this particular piece seems to cross a line of science based arguments that i feel uncomfortable with.
letsrun isn't the place to be enlightened, i guess, but is there anyone here who can make a compelling argument for allowing this?
The person in the first place probably never went through male puberty. World Athletics says she should be eligible to compete as a girl because whatever advantage she might have is not supported by sufficient evidence. (Pre-puberty boys have 1-2% advantage over girls. How that translates into advantage during and after puberty with hormone replacement is not clear.) Their principle is that any uncertainty should be decided in favor of the athletes.
The person in the 14th place has clearly gone through male puberty, and it is not clear whether she is on any kind of cross hormone therapy now. Her advantage over cis girls is beyond disputes and World Athletics says she should be ineligible. Some HS sports associations (about 15 states and DC) still think inclusion is more important than the level playing field.
Another way to achieve inclusivity might be to allow them to compete as girls, but list their results separately. One problem is that trans girls are often living in "stealth.' (Not disclosing their trans status to most people.) Listing their results separately will "out" them. The first place person was probably living in stealth because her presence did not become a source of controversy until very recently.
Why some trans girls try to go stealth or whether that is a wise decision is another question. In this case, she was probably too good for her own benefit. If she were a mediocre athlete who is eliminated in the district meet, she could have protected her privacy.
Inclusivity? Why? It's not necessary. Boys already have a division that they can compete in.
Didn't have to go through female puberty either. See the problem?
While 5-9 is very good for a high school kid, that is nothing extraordinary. Several HS girls have already cleared 6 ft this season, and Vashti Cunningham was jumping 6-5 at her age.
So I don't think there is any problem. She is just a talented high jumper. Not as talented as Cunningham or Mahuchikh (who also jumped 6-5 at age 17).
Nope, just an untalented boy, that gets to beat talented girls.
While 5-9 is very good for a high school kid, that is nothing extraordinary. Several HS girls have already cleared 6 ft this season, and Vashti Cunningham was jumping 6-5 at her age.
So I don't think there is any problem. She is just a talented high jumper. Not as talented as Cunningham or Mahuchikh (who also jumped 6-5 at age 17).
Nope, just an untalented boy, that gets to beat talented girls.
Nope, just an untalented boy, that gets to beat talented girls.
That would be the person who finished 14th there.
It's amazing that you're now making a distinction between the trans person in 1st and a trans person in 14th. You're calling the trans person in 14th a boy, while calling the trans person in 1st a girl. The one in 14th was not trans enough for you? Yet, you call others bigots? Your bigotry is nuanced, but it's still there.
List the ways this affects you personally. Not emotionally. Like did you finish second? Were you betting on high school girls long jump?
Maybe you should first examine your obsession with high school girls sports.
The Ukraine war and the AIDS epidemic haven't "affected me personally." Should I not care about those?
I care about other people. Girls are people too. Not just trans-gender kids. We need to think about everyone's well-being.
I sucked at high jump and quit the sport. I still jumped 5'10. Should I have been allowed to ruin every girls competition I entered? I would have won state if I had entered as a girl.
Why do we have an extra division for "girls" in the first place? That is the only reason trans-girls can't be allowed to compete with the girls. Everyone knows that...
It's amazing that you're now making a distinction between the trans person in 1st and a trans person in 14th. You're calling the trans person in 14th a boy, while calling the trans person in 1st a girl. The one in 14th was not trans enough for you? Yet, you call others bigots? Your bigotry is nuanced, but it's still there.
List the ways this affects you personally. Not emotionally. Like did you finish second? Were you betting on high school girls long jump?
Maybe you should first examine your obsession with high school girls sports.
The Ukraine war and the AIDS epidemic haven't "affected me personally." Should I not care about those?
I care about other people. Girls are people too. Not just trans-gender kids. We need to think about everyone's well-being.
I sucked at high jump and quit the sport. I still jumped 5'10. Should I have been allowed to ruin every girls competition I entered? I would have won state if I had entered as a girl.
Why do we have an extra division for "girls" in the first place? That is the only reason trans-girls can't be allowed to compete with the girls. Everyone knows that...
Haven't you figured it out? Girls don't matter. Only boys pretending to be girls matter.
Can only speak for myself but I have grown tired of leftists claiming this rarely happens and doesn’t matter anyway, even as it continues to happen again and again. Let this go on for much longer and it will become acceptable and commonplace. That is especially dangerous to women’s sports.
It's amazing that you're now making a distinction between the trans person in 1st and a trans person in 14th. You're calling the trans person in 14th a boy, while calling the trans person in 1st a girl. The one in 14th was not trans enough for you? Yet, you call others bigots? Your bigotry is nuanced, but it's still there.
I don't think it is wrong to see a difference between 14th an 1st. There is a difference to track fans.
Assuming the kid in 14th didn't "bump" a girl out of the comp, then it isn't as big of a deal. Looking back on a comp and getting 15th instead of 14th doesn't really matter.
But if you are on the podium or in the final, you are taking someone else's spot. That is why it matters less when a trans-girl just wants to run mid-pack with the girls. That is not likely to generate controversy.
The problem is that a "mid-pack" biological male, could often win the girl's race. That sort of ruins it for girls. Do you see the difference?
It is all about being thoughtful of who is impacted. I care more for "all the girls/women in the whole world" than I do for people who opt to run in a different division because it makes them, as individuals, better.
But I am also willing to admit that I am biased against certain kinds of behavior: I never liked people who are selfish and self-centered. We all hate that kind of behavior, right? On the other hand, I do like people who think of what is best for others. If I were to compete as a girl, I would realize, "wow, I am better than all the girls. I'd better not enter State and crush everyone." I would be self-aware enough to care about what is best for the biological girls. And if I had a son who wanted to transition, I would help him/her understand that too.
This post was edited 2 minutes after it was posted.
Can only speak for myself but I have grown tired of leftists claiming this rarely happens and doesn’t matter anyway, even as it continues to happen again and again. Let this go on for much longer and it will become acceptable and commonplace. That is especially dangerous to women’s sports.
The truth is it rarely happens. So, banning it shouldn't be a problem.
It's amazing that you're now making a distinction between the trans person in 1st and a trans person in 14th. You're calling the trans person in 14th a boy, while calling the trans person in 1st a girl. The one in 14th was not trans enough for you? Yet, you call others bigots? Your bigotry is nuanced, but it's still there.
I don't think it is wrong to see a difference between 14th an 1st. There is a difference to track fans.
Assuming the kid in 14th didn't "bump" a girl out of the comp, then it isn't as big of a deal. Looking back on a comp and getting 15th instead of 14th doesn't really matter.
But if you are on the podium or in the final, you are taking someone else's spot. That is why it matters less when a trans-girl just wants to run mid-pack with the girls. That is not likely to generate controversy.
The problem is that a "mid-pack" biological male, could often win the girl's race. That sort of ruins it for girls. Do you see the difference?
It is all about being thoughtful of who is impacted. I care more for "all the girls/women in the whole world" than I do for people who opt to run in a different division because it makes them, as individuals better.
But yes, I am biased against certain kinds of behavior: I never liked people who are selfish and self-centered. We all hate that kind of behavior, right? On the other hand, I do like people who think of what is best for others. If I were to compete as a girl, I would realize, "wow, I am better than all the girls. I'd better not enter State and crush everyone." I would be self-aware enough to care about what is best for the biological girls.
The 14th kid did bump a girl out, so did the 1st place kid. Every time a boy competes a girl gets bumped out. That's how it works.
If they don't feel comfortable competing in the boys division, the only choice they should get is to not compete. They all need to learn that, sometimes you don't get things your way.
The new world athletics regulations require athletes to transition before puberty. If this person was on HRT before her teens has never been through male puberty then I have no issue with her participation in high school sports. I am in agreement with the world athletics regulations.
1.) transgender kids are much more likely to self-harm / suffer depression/ bullying or suffer in school. While the media may portray that everyone is accepted, the reality of HS is far different.
2.) It has been proven that sports above all other activities reduce bad outcomes for all students.
These are two facts, whether you like them or not.
Therefore allowing transgender kids will significantly help them, make them feel more apart of a group, etc. Now, one could argue the type of kids whose parents support them by allowing them to do sports. etc likely have to do better but that is a big assumption.
Some might argue that we should restrict these to lower levels of sport (i.e. JV, open division) but let's be honest parent and LR losers would still complain.
While I understand this argument, I hope trans kids, especially trans girls, can find something other than sports they can be passionate about, and find communities other than sports teams to belong to.
There will always be bigots. But fewer people will raise objection if they sing in the female part in the school choir or play female roles in the school theatre production. (As far as I know, there are far more trans girls who are into music and theatre than sports.)
I also hope that municipal governments can create opportunity for school age kids to engage in recreational sports where parents don't take the outcome as seriously as the Olympic Games or FIFA World Cup. Kids should be able to participate in sports for the physical and mental wellness as well as some life lessons like perseverance and teamwork.
The person in the first place probably never went through male puberty. World Athletics says she should be eligible to compete as a girl because whatever advantage she might have is not supported by sufficient evidence. (Pre-puberty boys have 1-2% advantage over girls. How that translates into advantage during and after puberty with hormone replacement is not clear.) Their principle is that any uncertainty should be decided in favor of the athletes.
The person in the 14th place has clearly gone through male puberty, and it is not clear whether she is on any kind of cross hormone therapy now. Her advantage over cis girls is beyond disputes and World Athletics says she should be ineligible. Some HS sports associations (about 15 states and DC) still think inclusion is more important than the level playing field.
Another way to achieve inclusivity might be to allow them to compete as girls, but list their results separately. One problem is that trans girls are often living in "stealth.' (Not disclosing their trans status to most people.) Listing their results separately will "out" them. The first place person was probably living in stealth because her presence did not become a source of controversy until very recently.
Why some trans girls try to go stealth or whether that is a wise decision is another question. In this case, she was probably too good for her own benefit. If she were a mediocre athlete who is eliminated in the district meet, she could have protected her privacy.
appreciate you taking the time to to articulate this.
It's amazing that you're now making a distinction between the trans person in 1st and a trans person in 14th. You're calling the trans person in 14th a boy, while calling the trans person in 1st a girl. The one in 14th was not trans enough for you? Yet, you call others bigots? Your bigotry is nuanced, but it's still there.
I didn't call the 14th place person a boy. You did. I am just calling the 14th person untalented.
