Courtney Frerichs Uncensored: Frerichs tells Letsrun why she's left the Bowerman Track Club

Agreed . . . college athletes compete much more frequently thus are interviewed all the time . . . so "out of competition" interviews with pros would be really informative to the mass audience . . . so we don't have to wait months on end for them to compete then provide brief post-race interviews . . .

Grant Fisher, Katelyn Tuohy, Karissa Schweizer, EPSP, Sean McGorty . . . and definitely, more Woody!! . . . are names that come to mind.

However, it's rare to get a long-form "all access" interview like this one w/Courtney.

Bravo, Jon!!

So is "the big question" whether Shelby Houlihan's positive test had anything to do with Frerichs' decision to leave?

Courtney did not put any conditions on the interview. She didn't say "don't ask about Shelby." I guess I could have asked her point-blank about Shelby but I asked her why she left and she listed a number of things in great detail and Shelby was not among them. Also she left the team 2.5 years after Shelby was suspended.

I'm fairly confident Shelby's positive test did not have anything to do with Frerichs leaving. Frerichs has been (and continues to be) supportive of Houlihan, as have the vast majority of athletes who were on the team at the time. A number of them have since left the team and been asked about the Shelby situation. From what I can tell, only Gabriela DeBues-Stafford specifically cited it as a reason for leaving. Maybe you can also count Lucia Stafford too, since she may not have left if Gabriela had stayed.

Jon and I spoke to Fisher for an hour yesterday.

I don't actually think there's any point in asking about Houlihan. It's obvious that her ban and the subsequent controversy about her training with the group led to some strains, but what would really be gained by asking Frerichs (or Fisher, etc) about that now? Any answer is likely to be boring or unsatisfying, and at worst, might make the interview awkward for no real gain. We know the facts: Houlihan doped, she's banned, that's it.

I thought it was a great interview and I'd love to read/hear more. What about interviews with some of the Olympic marathon hopefuls before the trials?

I don't necessarily think that was the big question. Courtney kind of noted that she couldn't pinpoint when things "changed" and I do feel that things dramatically changed for them after Shelby was busted.

I think the questions would have been how did Shelby's doping bust change the dynamic of the club, and did you notice the shift after that? Do you believe that the move to Eugene would have happened if she wasn't busted?

and just to add to this, there is a big cloud over BTC, and BTC put it there themselves. Their support of Shelby extended far beyond her being their friend. They have consistently been in her corner, blaming the "system" for her as well. If they want to align themselves with a doper then they reap what they sow.

I am suspicious of every Shelby supporter including Courtney.

Excellent points and questions. Other questions could be:

whether Courtney ever really thought the nandro was in the burrito,

whether she was ever told that is was synthetic nandro,

whether she would now - knowing it couldn't have been in the burrito - act differently.

Of course the real questions are when Shelby started doping, what else she used, who orchestrated the doping, and who else was on the same program. Asking that would be pointless though.

Exactly. I personally don't think the "big question" needed to be asked in this interview but the way you have outlined it is exactly what could have been asked.

I find it ludicrous to suggest that Shelby's positive did not have anything at all to do with Frerichs leaving. If anything, it was the catalyst to a series of moves within BTC that ultimately led to her departure.

As for her thoughts on Shelby's positive, I consider it over and everyone within BTC has said what they feel and it seems unlikely that anything will ever change.

I think posters' frustration is a bit misplaced because it is Jerry who should be getting the brunt of most of the questions. From what we know/have heard trickle out from athletes:

-He made this workout philosophy switch somewhat out of nowhere (there seem to be a rash of more injuries on what was already an injury-plagued group)
-Move to Eugene wasn't handled great
-The Pascal departure seemed like a blow to everyone
-Shelby situation not handled professionally (for GDS at very least, Shalane's shallow social media activity didn't help)
-The lack of flexibility with workouts/individualization has bothered every athlete over the age of 27 seemingly (and many younger like Sinclaire Johnson)

Frerichs talking about these from her personal standpoint was good, but everyone will be unsatisfied until Jerry explains himself. The results are currently not doing the talking.

Are you considering any of the contra evidence, at all?? As I understand it, it was an ingested form*, but there was no evidence, (from hair samples, etc.) that it was being consumed over any significant period.

*By “ingested”, does that include the cases of ‘sabotage’ where the PED can be transferred through skin contact, as shown in this scenario?:

rbb24.de

"Doping Top Secret: GUILTY"

Positive after the briefest of touches: An alarming experiment shocks athletes and challenges the global anti-doping system. A documentary by Hajo Seppelt and the ARD doping editorial team.

Link:www.rbb24.de/sport/beitrag/av12/video-...

The researchers administered small amounts of various anabolic substances to 12 test persons via the skin using a carrier substance - by briefly touching the hand, neck or arm. The initial analysis of the samples by the renowned Cologne doping control laboratory revealed, in all 12 test persons, massive suspicion of doping. Traces were detectable in the laboratory up to 15 days after the administration of the extremely low doses of anabolic steroids.

"If the samples had come from athletes, we would have had suspicions that we would have investigated and would very likely have had to make a positive finding in many of the samples taken," said laboratory director Mario Thevis: "Then we would have had an anti-doping rule violation here, which would also have been sanctioned accordingly. The athlete would definitely be punished, possibly for up to four years."

The "end of professional sport"?
The results of the experiment and the research, which lasted over four years, are causing horror among athletes. "Without sounding too apocalyptic now: I ask myself whether this could perhaps be, to some extent, the end of professional sport," said Olympic triathlon champion Jan Frodeno, who saw parts of the documentary together with other German sports stars and athletes' representatives before its release.

What her favorite burrito is

Asking a teenager about what family and friends were in Eugene with her at USATFs wasn't the time or place either. In fact, there is no time nor place for questions like that. But it didn't stop him. Different athletes, different treatment - the LetsRun "journalistic" standard!

WARNING: Long post ahead...

Based on timelines, former BTC athlete statements, recent Nike executive and business challenges, and some insider rumblings, here is my take on the Bowerman Track Club situation:

1. In 2015, BTC was a pretty tight ship and Jerry had very good control over a right sized program. Athletes got along, the team was mostly young athletes on the upswing, and all were on the same page.

2. 2016 was incredible and the peak of the team's success. Careers were made, bonus money flowed, and BTC established itself as one of the best clubs in the world. Schumacher could do no wrong.

3. After Rio, the team had many stars and tensions began rising. Quigley started to expand her social media footprint, capitalized on her ability to score small deals in addition to her Nike contract, and became US running's "IT!" girl. This created some envy amongst more established veterans and some outright jealousy from more talented but less marketable teammates.

4. BTC expanded its men's and women's rosters significantly bringing in a diverse array of talent and personalities. Like any business, expansion brings complexity that is more difficult to manage. Athletes in different career stages, event groups, and with varied agendas broke down the formerly cohesive nature of the team. It was rumored that Schumacher had actively discouraged dating within his college and pro squads to avoid conflicts and factions being formed. After signing two athletes that came as a couple, this alleged rule seemed to no longer apply. Relationships and breakups ensue over time which might have caused an awkward environment.

5. Quigley has some good success running indoors, including a national indoor mile title over Houlihan, and mainstream media starts to take more notice of her. She begins to transcend the sport becoming an advocate for empowerment and social causes. A rift between her and Houlihan becomes more apparent and public.

6. Veteran athletes that brought maturity and wise counsel start to leave via retirement or assume coaching roles changing the overall dynamic. There are still many successes, but the BTC domination is beginning to wane.

7. COVID throws everything into disarray. Some athletes begin to lose passion for the sport and the team. Everyone's mental health suffers. Closed time trials are a poor substitute for real racing and, over time, you see the athletes putting less effort into them as they become a vehicle to hit contract minimums.

8. The team atmosphere starts to fall apart as some are burned out, some are looking for change, and others are either injured or not reaching their prior levels of performance. It also appears that some generational division is taking place between the old guard and younger signees.

9. Athletes start leaving Bowerman for new sponsors, other coaches, or for a change of scenery.

10. The Burrito (with all of its PR mistakes, drama, appeals, and fallout)

11. More athletes begin leaving as distractions mount and some lose faith in Schumacher's methods.

12. Scandals and personal misbehavior amongst Nike's senior leadership causes a massive turnover in the C-Suite. Sports obsessed and product-oriented leaders are replaced with executives from technology, entertainment, and consulting firms. Visionaries are replaced by technocrats and Nike's priorities shift away from marketing and product creation towards retail distribution strategies and operational efficiency.

13. John Capriotti, BTC's guardian angel, leaves Nike. Money for track athletes and for high budget corporate teams is no longer a given with new company leadership in Beaverton.

14. An aging Phil Knight wants to cement his legacy on the sport. He builds a new Hayward Field, lures the World Championships to Eugene, creates a reported $1 billion endowment to ensure University of Oregon track is funded in perpetuity, and he wishes to see the Ducks return to being a DISTANCE RUNNING powerhouse in his remaining years.

15. Robert Johnson is forced out of Oregon despite much success and several national titles won on the strength of his sprinters. This opens the door for a distance focused HC to assume control of the Ducks. Knight reportedly loves Jerry and Shalane.

16. Schumacher and Flanagan are hired to restore Oregon's distance running legacy. In an attempt to kill two birds with one stone, the Bowerman professional program is relocated to Eugene. This caused no small number of headaches, heartburn, and displeasure with the BTC athletes. Frerichs does a wonderful job of summing up how most felt about the move and one can speculate that some athletes chose to leave for similar reasons.

17. What happens after 2024? Will Bowerman TC survive (or Union, for that matter)? Will Nike continue to fund it? That remains to be seen. With Nike seeking $2 billion in cost savings over the next year and layoffs happening at WHQ, it's not inconceivable that BTC could be seen as frivolous spending by the current company leadership and closed down. Despite some new talented signees, I don't see that there is any shareholder value in keeping the professional club.

At some point, if you want different results the stimulus has to change. Whether clean or not, super shoes or not, distance at the world stage is improving rapidly. You can be an also ran at the world level and get national titles or go for broke and change things up. Jerry has built a monster that his runners are afraid to not continue to replicate year after year. No doubt Fisher and Cranny will be doing tho on their own as well. However, it points to the team being clean because they could not recover and benefit from more frequent intensity.

A real journalist's job isn't to presume something and therefore not ask about it; it's to get answers and confirm information.

The number 1 issue around Houlihan is exactly that she continues to have influence years after being suspended, so that argument doesn't make any sense.

This is just access journalism, where someone is afraid of losing access or importance so they make sure not to alienate anyone with uncomfortable questions. That's fine, but don't pretend you got any answers when you didn't ask the questions.

" Frerichs has been (and continues to be) supportive of Houlihan."

I guess we'd know if you'd asked, but you didn't, so you don't actually know if this is true.

I hate to turn this board into a Shelby doping board but I want to quickly debunk this.

1. She ordered a beef burrito and didn't eat enough of what could have been a pig offal burrito to trigger a positive test. Ross Tucker already figured out what she could have been ingesting pretty regularly (nor-DHEA) and it would not have produced a build up in use. And yes, it would have been against the rules for her to do so.

google.com

An In-Depth Analysis of The Shelby Houlihan Doping Case by Sports Scientist Ross Tucker

Ross Tucker

Ross goes through the CAS decision step by step from beginning to end, clarifies some of the more esoteric aspects of the case and outlines in clear terms exactly what Houlihan argued and why he thinks CAS ultimately (correct...

Link:www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=...

2. Jarrion Lawson's story is completely different from Shelby's and really shouldn't be compared. Lawson also had waaaaay less of the substance in his system, while Shelby had double the legal limit (also consistent with those who take nor-andro).

3. She was not sabotaged.

This seems generally reasonable, but you focus a lot on Quigley for some reason. No mention of her alleged flirting with Centro that began putting strain on her and Shelby's relationship? I don't recall if this was before or after she beat Shelby in the mile indoors. In real time, I recall that race being the first hint I got that something might be amiss. I think it was Kate Grace who in the post-race interview said that Colleen was "out for blood", which seemed odd given that Colleen's chief competitor was her friend and teammate.

This is a surprisingly excellent, thorough interview. Thank you.