2:30 marathoner moving forward

They (doing them without full recovery) cause an effect similar to Lydiard's windsprints - localised acidosis/lactate build-up. They're often used to keep in touch with anaerobic conditioning after the anaerobic phase has ended (pretty much what you've said).

There was a guy in my club in the 70s who was stuck in the mid to upper 2:20s for a good while. One year he went to Britain and ran the London to Brighton race. It was 53 or 54 miles. Not too long after that he sneaked under 2:20. He thought having done the Brighton was a big reason for his improvement because marathons no longer seemed like really long races.

Steve Way had a similar breakthrough from several ~2.19 runs down to 2.16 and 2.15(?) shortly afterwards training primarily for 100km races and realising he’d got himself into great marathon pb shape

Isn't 2:27 about equivalent to 15:20-15:30 5k?

So given that you are more of an endurance guy rather than speed, it makes sense that you never broke 15:00.

A 20-30 second improvement over 5k is a lot for someone as fit as you. Not impossible, but it's a bit of a leap.

This is the best answer.

Focus on bettering your vo2 max for a decent block of training, and then return to a marathon block.

If you think you've tapped out the endurance side, it makes sense to give yourself a little more "speed reserve".

Maybe according to Daniels' tables, but very rarely is this the case in the real world.

I know quite a few guys that can comfortably break 15:00, but can't crack 2:30 in the marathon.

Think about how many elite US women can run sub 15:20 in the 5k, and then compare that with how many can run sub-2:27 in the marathon.

Right. That was my post. Although I was trying to recommend (and explaining how to) doing them alactic by keeping them short and recovery long, you can alternatively get a lactic tolerance stimulus by shortening the recovery. In you post just above this one you refer to what I was getting at....which is that if they're 8-12 seconds (12 is close to about as long as these work for pure muscular stimulus for me at least) they are NOT a very cardiovascular workout. Like, you're you're not going hands to knees and gasping after each....IF you really take your time and walk down.

Either way the idea is to feel a muscular fatigue by the end like you would on the last rep lifting weights. But make them on the long side and jog down instead of walk, and you'll accumulate acid. They will get gradually harder. Both excellent workouts for even the longest of events. Probably more useful for marathon than anything, actually, since in the case of something like 5k, the specific work gives you speeds closer to all-out. The speed and stimulus of hill sprints is so far from what most of your training will be in a marathon-specific block that you're using and stressing otherwise neglected systems.

You can listen to what marathoner Rory Linkletter has to say about current coach Ryan Hall's emphasis on short anaerobic work. Hall feels (if I accurately interpret what he has said) he didn't do enough during his own marathon-focused career. Rory (again, I belive this is accurate after hearing what he's said) felt similarly when training under NAZ 's marathon program which is extremely specific. He felt he needed more fast stimuli and with Hall, recently ran a 4 minute mile immediately before his marathon specific phase.

That was to me to whom you responded. Read the post again. And the one just above this. I never mentioned 150m. Never suggested anything close to that. I do it on a hill closer to 50m. Sally Vix is the poster who offended you. You seem to think my post backs up or confirms those posts. I cannot run up a steep 150m hill in 10-12 seconds and still remain alactic. Neither can you.

You couldn't understand the very detailed and accurate explanation - or 'yapping' - so you revert to rebutting a point made by another poster by whom you were offended. It went over your head. That's fine, but accusing me of the 150m remark is very offensive.

What? Did you have a stroke? You literally quoted my post about the 150 meters and said "yes you can". Cry about it somewhere else now.
"you couldn't understand the very detailed and accurate explanation" give me a break moran, everyone knows about hill sprints, this isn't reddit.

I ran 2:24:high at CIM 4 years ago and hadn't broken 15:30 for the 5k yet. My mileage in the 120s like you. I took 1 spring lowered my milage to 75-100 mpw and did faster workouts. Mostly would do a short tempo (2-3 miles) and then 12x300 or 10x400 or 5x800. Took me less than 3 months and I broke 15. You have a massive base from those miles getting a faster 5K pr won't take that long.

That being said I now have a sub 15 5K pr my half marathon improved but no marathon pr since breaking 15 (though ran 2:24 one more time on a very hard legal course). I still don't regret going after my 5k or and it didn't make me slower at the marathon mostly my poor races at the marathon come down to bad weather I still competed decently. Keep grinding

That's insane. I'm over 40, and just broke 15min indoors in Dec and am at best in 2:45 shape right now. I cannot accept that a sub 2:30 runner can't crack 15min.

Reading stuff like this tells me a lot of marathoners do way too little speed work. Max aerobic capacity without speed is a sure way to not keep improving in any distance. Are you trying to run a fast marathon or slow marathon?

I am mentally reviewing my notes from my training back in 2002. I ran 2:18 in the Berlin Marathon in September 2002. My previous PR was 2:23, from way back in 1990. I had a 9 year layoff from 1991 to 2000 due to many injuries and what I like to call "the corporate meat grinder." I quit the corporate world in 1996 and became and independent consultant / inventor / investor.

I had a bad marathon in April 2002 (2:55) and then ran a couple of race in Europe, a 10 miler (51 something) and half marathon (1:11). I took about a month off in June 2002, just bicycled a lot, and then got back to running.

I spent 8 weeks in high altitude in China from July to August 2002 and it really recharged me.
Based on what you are telling the letsrun community, I believe that your mind and body needs a period of "rest and recharge." I think that you should take about a month off from running, and just do some swimming, bicycling, hiking, strength training, etc., but just go easy.

Based on my experience, fast short intervals such as hill sprints are not going to help you, and in fact, they might set you back.

I did very little interval training of any kind in my 3 months before the 2002 Berlin Marathon where I ran 2:18. I remember doing about 3 interval session, all were things like 8x1000.

Go easy on yourself. I think that you can make a breakthrough if you give your body some rest.

Yes, because in the real world, 99% of people are undertrained.

If you can run 15:30, you can run 2:30, unless you're a true middle distance guy who is already stretching his range at 5k or you're made of glass and just can't put together any consistent mileage.

What's hilarious and classic LRC is that posters are telling him that the answer might be running ultras! Pointing out the obvious need for speed training gets a flurry of downvotes from the committed trudgers.

Yeah & I guess I didn't even say it but 2:27 isn't worth sub-15 so you don't really have anything to worry about OP. You said you're not even close but is not even close 15:30-15:40, when a 2:27 is worth 15:20s? Or is it like the person on here who somehow ran 2:27 but hasn't cracked 16:00?

Regardless, you're likely tapped out at 2:27ish without improving your leg speed. You seem like more of an endurance runner because your marathon is stronger than your 5k. So spend a good 12-16 week block on the 5k. Like someone else said, you have a big base so cut the mileage a bit & change up your workout design. Run something that shows a 2:27 marathon or faster and then your marathon potential can get down into the low-2:20s

That would be me and one other guy as far as I can tell. And technically, I did not tell him the answer might be running ultras. I told him a story about someone who did make a significant breakthrough at the marathon after having run an ultra. He can make what he wants from that. Aside from my post and that one other one I can find and one from Mayeroff (You're still around Jason! I have wondered what became of you.) pretty much everyone who's suggested anything, from what I can tell, has gone with the "obvious need for speed training" in some form or other. So it seemed worthwhile to mention that someone in a similar situation to the OP's made his breakthrough without going the obvious need for speed training route when he asked if anyone else has "been here." And it's interesting that the one guy posting who has "been here" and gotten beyond it is suggesting that speed training may not help and could even make things worse, which actually was along the lines of my own experiences.

Given all of that, have you actually been in the OP's spot and gotten faster in marathons?That's the distance he's asking about. Can you give an actual example or examples of someone who was stuck at a particular range of marathon times and broke through by doing a lot of speed training?

One idea that I suspect no one wants to mention is that maybe the OP has just gotten as good as he's going to get. It happens to all of us eventually. Another idea that comes to mind, which is sort of along the lines of more faster running is a story Lydiard told me about one of the better but not well known Kiwi marathoners from "my" era, a guy called Terry Manners. Manners was a big guy, along the lines of Derek Clayton, as well as a big mileage guy. He'd get as high as 160 miles a week. But for a couple years he was stuck at 2:14.

I could have lived happily being stuck there but Manners wasn't so he asked Arthur what to do. At the time Manners' fastest 5,000 was in the 14:50s I believe. Arthur told him to do a series of time trials at that distance which got him to 14:0something and shortly afterward to 2:12.It got him to the Munich Olympics. But there was no other real change as far as I know in Manners' training.

Yep, sorry, I wasn't clear, but we're on exactly the same page. I was just equating your 'lactic tolerance stimulus' method to windsprints in terms of when is best to use that type of workout.

A place for everything, and everything in its place.

Is it better or worse that I've also never broken 72mins for a HM? Lol.

To be fair I was only really interested in marathons so never really eased off for other races (or done many 5km other than occasional parkruns), but even at that I've always had a tight conversion and I don't think ultra specific short distance training would have made as much of a difference to my 5km ability as it should have done.

It's quite possible that as others have said, the OP has maxed out (or near as) and any gains in one direction might be marginal and not give the improvement over other distances.