40-50ish for a lot of people, sometimes more. Then there are the rare talented folks who run sub-17 right away in HS. Most need some miles to get there.
This is accurate--when I did my 18:33 a long time ago I had to run about 40 mpw.
You can do it on half of that amount with smarter training. 18:33 is a poor return on 40 miles. 40 miles is a hell of a lot.
To The other poster who said do all moderate pace, that won't work either.
You just need to run a shade over 3.1 miles. That would be the minimum.
I appreciate the tip.
How much do you charge for personalized training?
My point is you should be asking what can I do to maximize my training, not how little training can I get away with. What can I do to train more?
There is little doubt that with 15 miles a week, all speed work, and a bmi of 18.5 some people would break 18.
Some people could do a single 5 mile run a week and cycle 30 hours a week and break 18.
There are all sorts of stupid ways to train. And yes, a talented individual could run sub 18 in their first outing with only a month or so of running ever - I've seen it happen.
You need to examine where you are at now and then take the next step forward. Someone who improves their times always tries to toe the red line of injury, staying just on the healthy side of it. There is no reward without risk. I'm not saying you have to go all in, but just putzing around doing 20 miles a week or whatever isn't going to get you anywhere, which is why how little can I train is a stupid question. Just train as much as you're willing to devote to training. I've seen untalented individuals have to run 100 miles a week to break 18. I've seen guys running 20-30 miles a week break 18 - but most of them weren't really interested in finding out how fast they could run.
My point is you should be asking what can I do to maximize my training, not how little training can I get away with. What can I do to train more?
There is little doubt that with 15 miles a week, all speed work, and a bmi of 18.5 some people would break 18.
Some people could do a single 5 mile run a week and cycle 30 hours a week and break 18.
There are all sorts of stupid ways to train. And yes, a talented individual could run sub 18 in their first outing with only a month or so of running ever - I've seen it happen.
You need to examine where you are at now and then take the next step forward. Someone who improves their times always tries to toe the red line of injury, staying just on the healthy side of it. There is no reward without risk. I'm not saying you have to go all in, but just putzing around doing 20 miles a week or whatever isn't going to get you anywhere, which is why how little can I train is a stupid question. Just train as much as you're willing to devote to training. I've seen untalented individuals have to run 100 miles a week to break 18. I've seen guys running 20-30 miles a week break 18 - but most of them weren't really interested in finding out how fast they could run.
I’m not trying to do as little work as possible, I’m mainly trying to avoid injury and maintain strength
I’m just trying to get a general idea of about what the minimum running required is to break 18.
Sounds like I should have a reasonable shot only doing 15-20 MPW (with other cross training) with my natural ability and if I drop my weight to ~185#.
I know a ton about strength training but not very much about running training.
I didn’t mean to ask a stupid question, I just really had no idea what type of mileage is required to run sub 18.
Check the "Modifying the Norwegian Method..." post.
It would be interesting to see what the training could do for you. If you're interested, join the Strava group and post updates.
Good luck!
Thanks, I’ll take a look!
I second what that dude just said about the mega Norwegian thread. IMO that's your best shot at getting the best bang for your buck without shedding a ton of weight , or more than you are willing to anyway. It's a commitment at this point, because the thread is sooooooo long, but it's probably better than any actual training book on the market right now. But you could read it over a week or so when drinking your morning steroid shakes or whatever you guys do. Sorry ha ha
The goal is a sub 19 min 5k at minimum, stretch goal sub 18 min within the next 3 months.
A little background: I recently ran a 5k in 20:35 on very little training, like 3-6 miles a week for 4 weeks little.
Other than that, I haven't run more than once or twice a month in about 20 years.
I currently strength train 5 days/wk with 3-4 days of conditioning- typically metcon/CrossFit style stuff.
I started running once a week about 6 weeks ago and decided last minute to jump in a 5k to see what I could do.
My goal is to get my strength numbers in the big three to over 300# bench, 400# squat, and 500# DL (I will likely get there within the next two months) and maintain that strength while I try to run some fast times in various events and eventually do some triathlons.
But the most immediate running goal is 5k under 19 (stretch goal 18) in the next 3 months.
I’m 6’0” and currently weigh ~200#.
20 years ago, when I was 5’2” and 95 pounds lighter, I ran 16:46 in XC; I just haven’t really run much since then (long story). Short story is my running career peaked freshman year of HS due to injuries and alcohol.
Point is, I have more natural running ability than most and I know I can run sub 18 again if I really want to.
The question is, can I do it without losing too much strength?
Anyway, I’m pretty sure just cutting 10# will be worth at least 30 seconds, probably more.
My question is this:
How little running do you think I can get away with and break 18 or 19 in the next 3 months?
Could I do it with just 3 days a week? Something like 1 long run, one tempo/interval day, and 1 other day?
Run 4x per week, 20 miles. Once a week do repeat miles at race pace of faster.
As an 18 year old, I ran a big mile PR off of several hard repeat mile workouts, (running mileage of 40-50 mpw) -- repeat miles is not easy, but man it's powerful tool.
This is accurate--when I did my 18:33 a long time ago I had to run about 40 mpw.
You can do it on half of that amount with smarter training. 18:33 is a poor return on 40 miles. 40 miles is a hell of a lot.
To The other poster who said do all moderate pace, that won't work either.
I knew a masters woman who ran 17:30 but she did 80 mpw and was well-known in Northeast Ohio for years. So you can still have high mileage (marathon-level) to help your shorter races.
I second what that dude just said about the mega Norwegian thread. IMO that's your best shot at getting the best bang for your buck without shedding a ton of weight , or more than you are willing to anyway. It's a commitment at this point, because the thread is sooooooo long, but it's probably better than any actual training book on the market right now. But you could read it over a week or so when drinking your morning steroid shakes or whatever you guys do. Sorry ha ha
Haha, ok, I'll read it over while I drink my steroid shake tomorrow morning.
Run 4x per week, 20 miles. Once a week do repeat miles at race pace of faster.
As an 18 year old, I ran a big mile PR off of several hard repeat mile workouts, (running mileage of 40-50 mpw) -- repeat miles is not easy, but man it's powerful tool.
This is part of what I'm trying to figure out, how long I can wait to start doing higher intensity stuff like intervals and harder tempo runs.
I'm hoping to be able to wait until early February so that would still give me 4-5 weeks to do some of that.
I don’t think it’s possible because of your mindset. You don’t want to run/train and it’s not a priority so that will make it near impossible to drop 2 minutes.
If you have run 20:30 with no training, there is a chance you could break 19 on minimal mileage. I agree with the other posters that the sweetspot for they type of training you would like to do (gain some speed and aerobic endurance while focusing on full body strength training) is probably about 20 miles per week. I would probably structure this in three sessions, like the classic: 1 session of speedwork, one threshold session and one "long run". the long run can be 8-9 miles, starting easy and progressing towards marathon pace. The speedwork could be one wile warmup, strides, and then 3 miles of repeats between 400m and one mile with 1-2 min rest starting around HM pace and progressing towards 5k pace. Initially, I would recommend to substitute the track with hill repeats of 60-120s. The threshold run would be something like one mile warmup and then 2-4 miles at HM-10K pace (start with 2 miles and progress to 4 miles). Without further info it is difficult to be more specific, but I suspect that any reasonable plan with three sessions and 20 mph would look roughly like this one.
You are getting hate because you are acting cocky without having done anything. At your age—it sounds like you are 35-40— and weight, even at 185 pounds, it’s going to take more effort than you think given that you don’t have a big aerobic base. You also need speed work.
That said, I hope you stick with it, update this thread each week, and hit your goal. It’s fun to follow the journey with it’s ups and downs. And it’s an interesting story that you have. Good luck!
You can do it on half of that amount with smarter training. 18:33 is a poor return on 40 miles. 40 miles is a hell of a lot.
To The other poster who said do all moderate pace, that won't work either.
Should that mean I should have been around 20-25 mpw? 40mpw was still good for building strength.
It's a hobby so I suppose you can decide what you like to do best, but if I was coaching you back to 18:30 I wouldn't have you doing more than 30 mpw. The first reason is to decrease fatigue and injury risk. The second reason is low mileage allows you to experiment and figure out what works, rather than having to hit an arbitrary mileage goal each week.
I don’t think it’s possible because of your mindset. You don’t want to run/train and it’s not a priority so that will make it near impossible to drop 2 minutes.
You couldn’t be further off here.
I have zero doubt I could do it if I focused solely on running.
I'm trying to figure out the least possible running I can do in order or avoid injury AND maintain my strength.
I want to run and train. That’s pretty much all I want to do right now.
But if I can do it off of 20 MPW, why run 40?
If it ends up taking more, I’ll do more but I want to start with the low end in order to be able to hit other goals.
To jecht, dude, you are fine. If this was HS, I’d agree, but I know from your other posts you are probably in your 30s or so. 18:33 is a good time off that mileage. Keep it up.
Another thread is happening now about LRC’s unrealistic expectations for normal people and this is a good example of how out of touch runners and coaches here are.
If you have run 20:30 with no training, there is a chance you could break 19 on minimal mileage. I agree with the other posters that the sweetspot for they type of training you would like to do (gain some speed and aerobic endurance while focusing on full body strength training) is probably about 20 miles per week. I would probably structure this in three sessions, like the classic: 1 session of speedwork, one threshold session and one "long run". the long run can be 8-9 miles, starting easy and progressing towards marathon pace. The speedwork could be one wile warmup, strides, and then 3 miles of repeats between 400m and one mile with 1-2 min rest starting around HM pace and progressing towards 5k pace. Initially, I would recommend to substitute the track with hill repeats of 60-120s. The threshold run would be something like one mile warmup and then 2-4 miles at HM-10K pace (start with 2 miles and progress to 4 miles). Without further info it is difficult to be more specific, but I suspect that any reasonable plan with three sessions and 20 mph would look roughly like this one.
Thank you!
This is exactly the type of response I was hoping for.
For the next 6 weeks I don’t think I can handle more than 1 day of higher intensity running (intervals/threshold/etc.)
What’s the best way to build a bit of a base the next 6 weeks?
1 day of ~30 min easy run, 1 long run, and 1 higher intensity day? If I don’t do the higher intensity day, another ~30 min easy run?