Jakobs 2023 season vs Noahs 2023 season (I think Jakob's was better)

THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:

High hopes wrote:

The problem for Jakob is that he had his best results in events that only running nerds care about. The 2 mile WR, 2k WR, and mile European Record are great but they aren't events that anyone cares about outside of narrow distance running circles. Lyles won the sprint treble and didn't rely on off-distance races like 150m or 300m to garland his season.

It also doesn't help Jakob that his female equivalent, Faith Kipyegon, did the exact same double that Jakob was going for, and broke the World Records in the championship distances that people actually care about.

Overall, I would agree that Jakob has better results across the season, but Lyles was the best when it mattered most, which is what matters for AOTY

I think this is a fair take, though I think running a 3:43 mile/7:23 double and 3:27.1 1500 people are performances people do care about. Doing the 2K/2mile as opposed to taking on the more prestigious 3K record and a sub-12:40 5K probably hurt some of the perception. Ultimately falling short at Worlds was the problem though. I still think he had the greater season by a lot, but as you said the voters put a huge amount of stock on championship performance. I think it's OK that the OP thinks that this is flawed and wrong. You could probably make these awards a lot better with just making it:

Field Athlete of the Year (M/F) - Crouser/Mondo, Mahuchikh/Rojas
Track/Roads/XC Athlete of the Year (M/F) - Kiptum/Jakob (a very good debate), Kipyegon/Hassan (probably Kipyegon)

End of Worlds announce like how all other major competitions end with this:
Worlds MVP (M) - Lyles
Worlds MVP (F) - Kipyegon

Salvitore Stitchmo wrote:

First of all, congratulations to Lyles for winning athlete of the year. Totally deserving winner and this isn't about painting a picture of him being undeserving. But I was running yesterday and thinking about his season versus Jakobs and ultimately landed on not being convinced that his 2023 season was either greater or better than Ingebrigtsens. I know the controversy of Jakob not even being a finalist has been addressed already but now we actually know the winner I thought it would be interesting to objectively compare both seasons.

And yeah like many of us here I am a distance guy but I have no problem acknowledging excellence across all disciplines. I personally know Noah, worked with him for a decent period of time on some stuff and he's a good kid so I have nothing against him at all. Just not sure his 2023 was better....

Lyles jewel in the crown is obviously the 100-200 double at the worlds and that's a great achievement but not exactly rare. Maurice Green, Justin Gatlin and Tyson Gay did it once and Bolt did it 3 times (probably would have been 4 if not for a false start in Daegu) so it's happened 6/19 times or approximately 1/3 of the time at the Worlds alone. He was unbeaten over 200m this season and despite winning the world title on scraped into the team finishing 3rd at the trials over 100m. Time wise he ran 19.47 which is 10AT, 19.52 which is 14AT and 19.67 which is 40AT.

Jakob obviously failed at his double - but only just and it's historically a far rarer and more difficult one to achieve -still to this day only Lagat has done it (07) at the world championships (Nurmi did it in 24, El G in 04 at Olympic Games). Point is it's hard and Jakob missed it by 0.28 of a second. But then it's hard to see how Jakobs season doesn't draw even with Lyles's and then pull markedly away. He won every other race outdoors over multiple distances. He ran the #3AT time in the 1500m* (asterisk because no chance I'm keeping Kiprops time in there). Ran a sub 3.44 mile which is 3AT, broke the 2000m WR that was held by the 1500m, mile WR holder and second fastest man ever over 3000m (ie. it's a quality record), ran the second fastest 3000m ever en-route to his 2mile WR which broke the record of a guy some believe to be the most naturally gifted MD runner in history (Komen) and then officially the 3AT over 3000m a day after running 3.43 which capped surely the most incredible back to back days of running maybe ever seen over any distance in history.

Summary: Lyles has a WC double and a really solid season of performances but by any metric, unspectacular. Jakob has failed WC double (albeit a more difficult one) and a season of quite honestly spectacular performances. So unless there are metrics off the track that WA uses in the criteria for this award (are there? - social media presence?), I just could not sit here and make a logical and rational case that Noah Lyles had a greater or better season than Jakob Ingebrigtsens.

Or maybe I'm missing something or another POV?

THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:

High hopes wrote:

The problem for Jakob is that he had his best results in events that only running nerds care about. The 2 mile WR, 2k WR, and mile European Record are great but they aren't events that anyone cares about outside of narrow distance running circles. Lyles won the sprint treble and didn't rely on off-distance races like 150m or 300m to garland his season.

It also doesn't help Jakob that his female equivalent, Faith Kipyegon, did the exact same double that Jakob was going for, and broke the World Records in the championship distances that people actually care about.

Overall, I would agree that Jakob has better results across the season, but Lyles was the best when it mattered most, which is what matters for AOTY

I think this is a fair take, though I think running a 3:43 mile/7:23 double and 3:27.1 1500 people are performances people do care about. Doing the 2K/2mile as opposed to taking on the more prestigious 3K record and a sub-12:40 5K probably hurt some of the perception. Ultimately falling short at Worlds was the problem though. I still think he had the greater season by a lot, but as you said the voters put a huge amount of stock on championship performance. I think it's OK that the OP thinks that this is flawed and wrong. You could probably make these awards a lot better with just making it:

Field Athlete of the Year (M/F) - Crouser/Mondo, Mahuchikh/Rojas
Track/Roads/XC Athlete of the Year (M/F) - Kiptum/Jakob (a very good debate), Kipyegon/Hassan (probably Kipyegon)

End of Worlds announce like how all other major competitions end with this:
Worlds MVP (M) - Lyles
Worlds MVP (F) - Kipyegon

High hopes wrote:

THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:

I think this is a fair take, though I think running a 3:43 mile/7:23 double and 3:27.1 1500 people are performances people do care about. Doing the 2K/2mile as opposed to taking on the more prestigious 3K record and a sub-12:40 5K probably hurt some of the perception. Ultimately falling short at Worlds was the problem though. I still think he had the greater season by a lot, but as you said the voters put a huge amount of stock on championship performance. I think it's OK that the OP thinks that this is flawed and wrong. You could probably make these awards a lot better with just making it:

Field Athlete of the Year (M/F) - Crouser/Mondo, Mahuchikh/Rojas
Track/Roads/XC Athlete of the Year (M/F) - Kiptum/Jakob (a very good debate), Kipyegon/Hassan (probably Kipyegon)

End of Worlds announce like how all other major competitions end with this:
Worlds MVP (M) - Lyles
Worlds MVP (F) - Kipyegon

I agree on your first point, and the mile has some historical significance, but the 7:23? That's one for running nerds. No one outside of track circles knows what a good 3k time is. Jakob didn't deliver in his premium event when it mattered - no one cares which NBA team has the best regular season record, people only remember who wins the playoffs.