Why? Because there is not wavelight in the marathon where the shoes have decimated the times.
THere was no wavelight that mattered in Girma's WR as he was way ahead of it.
Now I did remark on the podcast that the 1500 pacing is now perfect, and I do think it makes a difference as Kiprop used to alway go out super fast (but that's what he wanted to do as I asked him about it), but I think the shoes are way greater than the wavelight.
People who act like shoes don't matter are people who have worn the new shoes. Go buy a pair.
Well Rojo, will be interesting what the new supershoes can do to my coached Kenyan Evans Bett in the 1500m if or when he will get them. Yesterday he made a great performance running a new PB 3:32.48 at 2:nd position after the new young Kenya star Reymond Cheruyiot ( 3:31:57 ) in the Kenya Nationals 1500m ( also qualification race for the African Games in two weeks time).I started to coach Evans 2 months ago ( ! ) when his PB was 3:39. I saw very early he had fantastic speed but lacked endurance , so I mainly worked on to correct that. E.g I had him to do a famous workout done by Mike Boit back in the -70s where Mike ran 2 x 800m@ 1:53 with 4 min rest between before he beat the world record then and ran 1:43.7 . Evans executed the same workout in 1:52 and 1:50 !
New PB with almost 7 sec in 2 months coaching without supershoes,must be a record in itself I guess,don`t you think?
Enough with the lies Jan!
You don't coach Evans Bett and he was not 2nd in the Kenyan National Champioships like you say on Facebook. The 1500m finals are today!
Why? Because there is not wavelight in the marathon where the shoes have decimated the times.
THere was no wavelight that mattered in Girma's WR as he was way ahead of it.
Now I did remark on the podcast that the 1500 pacing is now perfect, and I do think it makes a difference as Kiprop used to alway go out super fast (but that's what he wanted to do as I asked him about it), but I think the shoes are way greater than the wavelight.
People who act like shoes don't matter are people who have worn the new shoes. Go buy a pair.
He is partially right. The reason legs are less beat up in training now is the shoes. It is not really some training breakthrough, it is the shoes worn in training.
He is partially right. The reason legs are less beat up in training now is the shoes. It is not really some training breakthrough, it is the shoes worn in training.
Exactly. And why are they not as beat up? It's not because this cushioning is so much better for the legs, it's because athletes aren't having to work so hard to hit he required paces in training. I've heard so many interviews with athletes over the last year where they say they took on a what was supposed to be a crazy hard session and it ended up feeling easy. Oli Hoare said as much on the Coffee Club in the pre-Oslo podcast
I don’t think this is what Nick was talking about but I was behind intrigued when Ollie mentioned this so I did some digging. Sounds like a it’s pretty newly available to the masses but Ollie said Jakob had been doing it for years. Did some more research and it sounds like loss of other elites do too (Kipchoge, Cheptegi, etc). Not good grief it’s $65 for four servings right now. Sounds like similar benefits to caffeine but is in addition to the caffeine benefit.
Amazing insight NICK! Your theory??? Wow, that's some ground breaking stuff right there as I'm sure no person other than yourself has come up with that theory? If I get all 6 numbers right for the Lotto in Michigan, will I win the jackpot? Please do tell Nick!
It's actually the wavelights enabling these races to be hit in literal perfect splits. Why is this not being talked about more?
We had good shoes in the past (anyone remember the carbon fiber Vic elites?) and these shoes are not that much different (anyone who has run in the dragonfly will tell you that), and the training can't be THAT much different from what is done in the past.
But, we have an entirely NEW variable that we never had anything close to in the past: wavelight
Why does everyone focus on the slight tweaks to the shoes and the training and completely ignore the elephant in the room?
So the huge improvement of HS times in similar events, not just at the top but top 25, top 100, top 1000, etc, is due to wavelights and pacing, even though 99.9% of HS races are run still without wavelights or pacers, just like before? There is no elephant, what you see is just your own delusion.
Read Nick’s tweet. This is not a discussion of high school running. Wavelight’s effect at the elite level is massive. Go back and watch old diamond league races and world records if you don’t believe me. The pacing is laughable in comparison to what we have now.
People list technological improvements galore, but no one mentions the thing between your ears. Records didn't just start getting broken because someone bought new shoes or trained a little differently. The effect of having a target time to shoot for (whether that's a world record or a qualifying mark or simply what other competitors have done, like the 4-minute high school mile) shouldn't be underestimated. Many words have been spilled about the power of belief and goals, and it's no accident.
People list technological improvements galore, but no one mentions the thing between your ears. Records didn't just start getting broken because someone bought new shoes or trained a little differently. The effect of having a target time to shoot for (whether that's a world record or a qualifying mark or simply what other competitors have done, like the 4-minute high school mile) shouldn't be underestimated. Many words have been spilled about the power of belief and goals, and it's no accident.
You don't think Nurmi, Zatopek, Bannister, Elliott and Snell had that kind of belief in their goals?
It's actually the wavelights enabling these races to be hit in literal perfect splits. Why is this not being talked about more?
We had good shoes in the past (anyone remember the carbon fiber Vic elites?) and these shoes are not that much different (anyone who has run in the dragonfly will tell you that), and the training can't be THAT much different from what is done in the past.
But, we have an entirely NEW variable that we never had anything close to in the past: wavelight
Why does everyone focus on the slight tweaks to the shoes and the training and completely ignore the elephant in the room?
Truly blows my mind that someone who follows the sport close enough to be posting on letsrun can have this perspective in 2023
It's actually the wavelights enabling these races to be hit in literal perfect splits. Why is this not being talked about more?
We had good shoes in the past (anyone remember the carbon fiber Vic elites?) and these shoes are not that much different (anyone who has run in the dragonfly will tell you that), and the training can't be THAT much different from what is done in the past.
But, we have an entirely NEW variable that we never had anything close to in the past: wavelight
Why does everyone focus on the slight tweaks to the shoes and the training and completely ignore the elephant in the room?
Carbon fiber this, carbon fiber that.
You guys don't get it. It is not the carbon fiber that is making these shoes "super". It's the foam. If you're not running in PEBAX you're running behind.
Prior to the pace lights, at least 2/3rds of races were screwed up by bad pacing.
I don't think people remember how common it was for a pacer to be 20+ metres ahead of the field after a lap. That doesn't seem to happen anymore.
In the Diamond League, you might get one well paced race, with a stacked field, and a willingness to go all in. That tended to be Monaco - now it's every race.
If they really want perfect pacing, this is how it should be done.
Why is it such a hard concept to understand that humans get better at things over time? Literally every sport, job, tech, ANYTHING humans do over time is better now than it was previously. It’s natural progression but everyone needs to have some sort of excuse to invalidate these.
Why does everyone focus on the slight tweaks to the shoes and the training and completely ignore the elephant in the room?
Why? Because there is not wavelight in the marathon where the shoes have decimated the times.
THere was no wavelight that mattered in Girma's WR as he was way ahead of it.
Now I did remark on the podcast that the 1500 pacing is now perfect, and I do think it makes a difference as Kiprop used to alway go out super fast (but that's what he wanted to do as I asked him about it), but I think the shoes are way greater than the wavelight.
People who act like shoes don't matter are people who have worn the new shoes. Go buy a pair.
Okay pump the brakes Rojo. Because you are far too surface level here.
1) We are talking about vastly different product, used on vastly different surfaces for one. When you want to talk about the performance benefit of "energy return" it comes down to deflection of material under the foot and resilience (ability to return to its original shape). And the only material in these products that does this is the foam. The thicknesses of foam in track spikes are obviously different to those in road racing shoes (actual underfoot the difference is almost 2.5X - don't just look at the sidewall) and does not allow enough compression/deflection to create the same benefit. The most important elastic/energy return component in track running is still the track surface.
2) Wavelight itself is just the gateway or enabler to the ultimate performance benefit - even paced running. Wavelight isn't the performance enhancer - even paced running is. Again you can't compare the marathon and the track - it's far easier to run even paced at slower speeds, in your aerobic energy system. The marathon doesn't need wavelight as much as the track does. And also let's not act like the breaking 2 attempts where there essentially was a mobile wavelight helping Kipchoge, didn't help him understand his boundaries and pace judgement better for actual legit 'thons. And let's also not act like the motorbike which essentially rides in front of these guys with the running clock emblazoned on it doesn't act as an unofficial pacemaker (I'll let you in on a secret the driver knows exactly how fast to go based on what the lead guys want to run).
Bottom line, wavelight means a hell of a lot more to track than it does the marathon where the footwear is far more important.
3) No wavelight that mattered in the SC record? What race did you watch? Girma passes the front of the blue light at around 3min50-55 of that race. You don't think that the opening 50% of that race was crucial to what happened in the final 50% of that race? What if the pacemaker - instead of going through 400m in an even 63 seconds because he's right on the light, goes through in 61 because he's excited he's pacing a WR attempt. Or if he gets too conservative and runs a 64.5 and all of a sudden in both scenarios the pace has to fluctuate to get back on schedule? The two pacemakers who give him just over 3 out of 7.5 laps of perfect even pacing, do so because of WL. Before Girma passes the front of the blue light and moves away he is visibly looking down at it. When he does go past you don't think he is benefitting mentally from not seeing that light anymore? Every step he's taking he knows he's ahead of schedule - no benefit there?
4) This final comment - "people who act likes the shoes don't matter who haven't worn the new shoes". Firstly nobody is saying the shoes (spikes) don't matter - the question is how and to what degree, and more importantly how so in comparison to the other massive advancement we have on the track now (WL). In a way it kind of sucks that inadvertently, both of these performance enhancers came at almost exactly the same time so we didn't see a Cheptegei 5/10k attempt with only new spikes or vice versa with WL.
You can think the spikes are more important - I disagree. I worked first hand on and around these exact products for many years and I can tell you for a fact a net positive benefit is hard to quantify because we couldn't apply the same conditional testing logic we did in road product (mostly due to the surface and foam thickness differences) and we landed on it mostly being a cushioning benefit that helped athletes with short and long term cumulative fatigue (as Willis alluded to). That benefit was and is very athlete to athlete dependant.
The performance enhancement "pie chart" of total benefit?
At pro level (which is what we are discussing here when you are talking the Marathon WR, Girma, the current state of the 1500 etc etc)
Why? Because there is not wavelight in the marathon where the shoes have decimated the times.
THere was no wavelight that mattered in Girma's WR as he was way ahead of it.
Now I did remark on the podcast that the 1500 pacing is now perfect, and I do think it makes a difference as Kiprop used to alway go out super fast (but that's what he wanted to do as I asked him about it), but I think the shoes are way greater than the wavelight.
People who act like shoes don't matter are people who have worn the new shoes. Go buy a pair.
Okay pump the brakes Rojo. Because you are far too surface level here.
1) We are talking about vastly different product, used on vastly different surfaces for one. When you want to talk about the performance benefit of "energy return" it comes down to deflection of material under the foot and resilience (ability to return to its original shape). And the only material in these products that does this is the foam. The thicknesses of foam in track spikes are obviously different to those in road racing shoes (actual underfoot the difference is almost 2.5X - don't just look at the sidewall) and does not allow enough compression/deflection to create the same benefit. The most important elastic/energy return component in track running is still the track surface.
2) Wavelight itself is just the gateway or enabler to the ultimate performance benefit - even paced running. Wavelight isn't the performance enhancer - even paced running is. Again you can't compare the marathon and the track - it's far easier to run even paced at slower speeds, in your aerobic energy system. The marathon doesn't need wavelight as much as the track does. And also let's not act like the breaking 2 attempts where there essentially was a mobile wavelight helping Kipchoge, didn't help him understand his boundaries and pace judgement better for actual legit 'thons. And let's also not act like the motorbike which essentially rides in front of these guys with the running clock emblazoned on it doesn't act as an unofficial pacemaker (I'll let you in on a secret the driver knows exactly how fast to go based on what the lead guys want to run).
Bottom line, wavelight means a hell of a lot more to track than it does the marathon where the footwear is far more important.
3) No wavelight that mattered in the SC record? What race did you watch? Girma passes the front of the blue light at around 3min50-55 of that race. You don't think that the opening 50% of that race was crucial to what happened in the final 50% of that race? What if the pacemaker - instead of going through 400m in an even 63 seconds because he's right on the light, goes through in 61 because he's excited he's pacing a WR attempt. Or if he gets too conservative and runs a 64.5 and all of a sudden in both scenarios the pace has to fluctuate to get back on schedule? The two pacemakers who give him just over 3 out of 7.5 laps of perfect even pacing, do so because of WL. Before Girma passes the front of the blue light and moves away he is visibly looking down at it. When he does go past you don't think he is benefitting mentally from not seeing that light anymore? Every step he's taking he knows he's ahead of schedule - no benefit there?
4) This final comment - "people who act likes the shoes don't matter who haven't worn the new shoes". Firstly nobody is saying the shoes (spikes) don't matter - the question is how and to what degree, and more importantly how so in comparison to the other massive advancement we have on the track now (WL). In a way it kind of sucks that inadvertently, both of these performance enhancers came at almost exactly the same time so we didn't see a Cheptegei 5/10k attempt with only new spikes or vice versa with WL.
You can think the spikes are more important - I disagree. I worked first hand on and around these exact products for many years and I can tell you for a fact a net positive benefit is hard to quantify because we couldn't apply the same conditional testing logic we did in road product (mostly due to the surface and foam thickness differences) and we landed on it mostly being a cushioning benefit that helped athletes with short and long term cumulative fatigue (as Willis alluded to). That benefit was and is very athlete to athlete dependant.
The performance enhancement "pie chart" of total benefit?
At pro level (which is what we are discussing here when you are talking the Marathon WR, Girma, the current state of the 1500 etc etc)