alright coach, so what do you think Wightman would be running if he were training like Ingebrigtsen? how about any other top 15 miler? faster than Jakob?
then why don't they do it?
I think your questions are at the crux of assessing what training is best for an individual, in terms of what works for their ultimate potential. The answers are not fleshed out enough with actual data.
Genetically, because his parents were marathoners, Wightman might very be ‘slow-twitch’. But his Dad, recognized the importance of developing, emphasizing and maintaining the speed component in young Jake’s training.
“There is more than one way to skin the cat”. However, Peter Coe, likely due to influence from Horwill, felt speed was sacrificed with too much non-pace mileage.
This topic could engender deep discussion.
In terms of training, and physiological development, there were many interesting pieces of information offered by the Sweat Elite video (combined with Wightman’s video that he followed up with on his YouTube channel.). One of the many interesting things Wightman said was that he would likely need one to follow him around with sawdust when racing the 3000m.
I think trained minds in physiology science should go down a line of investigation into what training is optimum for engendering the neuromuscular reactivity for fast 800m development, when balanced against muscular aerobic development, in order to extend speed endurance.
Marius Bakken, who is one of the few people who has actually seen Seb´s logs (he was coached by Peter Coe early in his career).
I remember reading that seb didn't count warm-up/cooldowns/slower mileage as training. "Junk mileage". So when they reference his low mileage, that is only counting his harder sessions + faster runs. Marius was surprised by that. In actuality, he ran quite a lot.
Same with El G. Didn't count his slower stuff as training.
Marius Bakken, who is one of the few people who has actually seen Seb´s logs (he was coached by Peter Coe early in his career).
''The very first time I became aware that the actual mileage shown in logs and included in articles and books was inaccurate took place in 1983. I attended the Kinney Regional Cross-Country meet (now called Footlocker) as a junior in high school. Peter Coe, the father of Seb and Seb's coach, talked about training (a mini-clinic for the kids in attendance). When asked about warmups and cool downs that Seb did Peter said that anything over 6 minutes a mile was considered a warm up or cool down and not counted as "real" training. Thus, it was obvious that any running over 6 minutes per mile was not counted in Seb's logs (kept by Peter). Regardless, Seb admitted that he "ran 100 miles per week for years." Even if that was an exageration, it probably reveals that Seb was running more per week than most people thought.''
And how many Tinman-coached athletes have ever been on the start line of a World Championship or Olympics 1500m final?
(crickets)
You miss the point entirely if you wish to somehow conflate the old school British Milers training with that of ‘volumetric Lydiard’. The latter may appeal to all the hobby-joggers frequenting this site, because they don’t wish to entertain the suffering engendered in the former.
And how many Tinman-coached athletes have ever been on the start line of a World Championship or Olympics 1500m final?
(crickets)
You miss the point entirely if you wish to somehow conflate the old school British Milers training with that of ‘volumetric Lydiard’. The latter may appeal to all the hobby-joggers frequenting this site, because they don’t wish to entertain the suffering engendered in the former.
To be fair, the success of the ‘gentler’ Jakob Ingebrigtsen training is inarguable:
PB’s
J. Ingebrigtsen…1:46.44…3:28.32…3:46.46
Wightman…..…1:43.65…....3:29.23…3:50.30
T. Cheruiyot……1:43.11…….3:28.28…3:49.64
Coe……………..…1:41.73……3:29.77….3:47.33
Cram………….….1:42.88……3:28.67….3:46.32
However, what happens in Paris if Cheruiyot is not there to serve as wind-break mule for Jakob? Will Jakob then have to pace-set, and get jumped by Wightman again in the last 200m?
And how many Tinman-coached athletes have ever been on the start line of a World Championship or Olympics 1500m final?
(crickets)
You miss the point entirely if you wish to somehow conflate the old school British Milers training with that of ‘volumetric Lydiard’. The latter may appeal to all the hobby-joggers frequenting this site, because they don’t wish to entertain the suffering engendered in the former.
No....you're missing the point. The point is that Seb Coe ran much more than previously thought - roughly 100 miles a week in the winter periods. Tinman's success as a coach have nothing to do it. If a 30 minute 5k guy reported what Peter Coe had said, it's still valid because that's what Peter himself said. I hope this is clear to you.
Incredulous. So what do you think Peter Coe was trying to convey, when he stated the following?:
“The ‘quality’ of what you do is much more important than the ‘quantity’. Why pound the life out of a young runner, when you can develop it with ‘quality’?
“Now the bit about ‘quality’ is, when you think about it in terms of speed and speed endurance, you are mentally expecting him to go through, not so much a pain barrier, but to learn no matter how badly he feels, he can still go. And when you are faced with the last lap in a solo run in a World Record, there is no ‘running training’, there are no ‘physiological secrets’, or ‘dietary aids’, other than that single-minded-bloody-will to hang on over that last 400 and come sprinting through that line.
Now if you don’t engender that along the way, then you’re missing the whole point of what the training is about.” ~Peter Coe
“The training, to be good, has to be systematic, it has to be progressive, it has to be hard. It’s very nice, at the end of the day, to be able to go out and run for therapeutic purposes. But by and large, anybody who’s noticing the scenery…or whatever’s playing in his ears, is not possibly working as hard as he should be.” ~Seb Coe
“We live in a part of the city where when you walk out your front door, almost any direction is up, so that you’re not short of hill running. What you do is select the right gradients, the right streets in relation to traffic. And we came across what we call Rivelin Valley Road…(where) you can put together half mile runs, with short recoveries, which are really cruel. And if you survive training up there, you know you’re tough, you’re hard.” ~Peter Coe
“I’ve been working out on that Rivelin Valley Road for at least 12 or 13 years. Basically, what it is, is between six and eight half-mile sections of road, back-to-back. I have the car as pace, and most of them are run significantly under two-minutes, with very short recovery. That is hard. That is one of the hardest of the conditioning sessions that I do.” ~Seb Coe
I like this debate in training methodology between these two. It’s like how some 800 runners can run 15 miles a week and some run 60.
What I always think is “what else are these guys supplementing?”
Both coached by fathers since a young age, same as Seb. There has to be a question of if they are equal from what TUE’s, inhalers, meds and whatever else they’re on that fills the gap in training.
I think it’s well know that wightman has “Asthma” which for a sub 350 miler seems highly unlikely… so I’d love to see all the “supplements” taken by both that can fill the gaps.
I like this debate in training methodology between these two. It’s like how some 800 runners can run 15 miles a week and some run 60.
What I always think is “what else are these guys supplementing?”
Both coached by fathers since a young age, same as Seb. There has to be a question of if they are equal from what TUE’s, inhalers, meds and whatever else they’re on that fills the gap in training.
I think it’s well know that wightman has “Asthma” which for a sub 350 miler seems highly unlikely… so I’d love to see all the “supplements” taken by both that can fill the gaps.
Your cute little asthma theory is quite hillarious. It doesn't work like that.
Marius Bakken, who is one of the few people who has actually seen Seb´s logs (he was coached by Peter Coe early in his career).
I remember reading that seb didn't count warm-up/cooldowns/slower mileage as training. "Junk mileage". So when they reference his low mileage, that is only counting his harder sessions + faster runs. Marius was surprised by that. In actuality, he ran quite a lot.
Same with El G. Didn't count his slower stuff as training.
Nonsense. In "Better training for distance runners" there are examples from Seb´s logs, and every metter of running is recorded - including warm ups and cool downs.
Jake Wightman ran the Ribble Valley 10k on December 27th last year. It was quite surprising to see him on the start line considering he's an 8 and 15 guy although I suppose Cram raced 10k on the roads fairly regularly. Jake ran 30:10 for about 10th. It shows how different Jakob and Jake are and what different angles they approach the 1500 from. Even though Jake worked on his strength, 3000 seems about the longest distance he can run anything reasonable at.
Will be interesting to see if he races the 10k again this year. It's good to see he's not afraid of humbling himself. He went with the leaders at the start last year. It was won in 28:58 or something. It's a good quality race in the North of England. It's usually pretty fast although not the fastest course. It has about 300ft of elevation. Marc Scott has the record at 28:32.
One of the things that badly hurt British middle distance running in the 90s and early 2000's was the obsession with 5 pace theory, running everything at good quality and not doing 'junk mileage' or high volume. That may work for some people but for many people especially if you more long distance based it is not effective.
Although Horwill did a massive amount for the sport in the UK setting up the British Milers club, coaching etc. I believe some of his ideas or possibly the misinterpretation of them resulted in a massive amount of harm to the quality of British distance running during that era. Probably the biggest single reason there was such a big decline.
I was brought up reading 'better training for distance runners' by Coe and also Horwills regular articles in Athletics weekly etc. and believing every run had to be hard. It's no wonder running 40-50 miles a week felt hard and I was always injured. Horwill was always going on about not running junk mileage and doing 12 mile long runs at half marathon pace etc. Most people brought up running in that era will tell you the same.
Jake's training seems more based around Horwill and Coes ideas. He runs all his runs fast and his mileage is relatively low. It has worked for him but I don't believe it works for the majority of people or for 5k or above. That way of training also carries a higher injury risk. As Jakob has shown you can approach 1500 from the other end of the spectrum in a less risky way. 5 pace training may work better for 8 15 types and Threshold focussed training for 15 / 5 k and above.
There is probably room for using five pace training when peaking alongside plenty of easy running after a big base of lots of Threshold work. I imagine that is not far off what Jakob does in the few weeks before a major champs. He mentioned recently in a interview that was the hardest thing to get right.
Incredulous. So what do you think Peter Coe was trying to convey, when he stated the following?:
“The ‘quality’ of what you do is much more important than the ‘quantity’. Why pound the life out of a young runner, when you can develop it with ‘quality’?
“Now the bit about ‘quality’ is, when you think about it in terms of speed and speed endurance, you are mentally expecting him to go through, not so much a pain barrier, but to learn no matter how badly he feels, he can still go. And when you are faced with the last lap in a solo run in a World Record, there is no ‘running training’, there are no ‘physiological secrets’, or ‘dietary aids’, other than that single-minded-bloody-will to hang on over that last 400 and come sprinting through that line.
Now if you don’t engender that along the way, then you’re missing the whole point of what the training is about.” ~Peter Coe
It's clear that Peter and Seb Coe emphasized quality and speed workouts in their training. Nothing wrong with that. The thing is that Seb ran a lot of quantity as well even if he didn't emphasize it. And your comment about old school British miler training and Lydiard is just baffling. The big three, Coe, Ovett and Cram (as well as Peter Elliot) all ran large volumes of steady miles at a strong aerobic pace in the base period. Yet, you're acting like they're doing the total opposite of Lydiard.
One of the things that badly hurt British middle distance running in the 90s and early 2000's was the obsession with 5 pace theory, running everything at good quality and not doing 'junk mileage' or high volume. That may work for some people but for many people especially if you more long distance based it is not effective.
Although Horwill did a massive amount for the sport in the UK setting up the British Milers club, coaching etc. I believe some of his ideas or possibly the misinterpretation of them resulted in a massive amount of harm to the quality of British distance running during that era. Probably the biggest single reason there was such a big decline.
I was brought up reading 'better training for distance runners' by Coe and also Horwills regular articles in Athletics weekly etc. and believing every run had to be hard. It's no wonder running 40-50 miles a week felt hard and I was always injured. Horwill was always going on about not running junk mileage and doing 12 mile long runs at half marathon pace etc. Most people brought up running in that era will tell you the same.
Jake's training seems more based around Horwill and Coes ideas. He runs all his runs fast and his mileage is relatively low. It has worked for him but I don't believe it works for the majority of people or for 5k or above. That way of training also carries a higher injury risk. As Jakob has shown you can approach 1500 from the other end of the spectrum in a less risky way. 5 pace training may work better for 8 15 types and Threshold focussed training for 15 / 5 k and above.
There is probably room for using five pace training when peaking alongside plenty of easy running after a big base of lots of Threshold work. I imagine that is not far off what Jakob does in the few weeks before a major champs. He mentioned recently in a interview that was the hardest thing to get right.
The interesting thing about Jake Wightman is that prior to his breakout season (1:43:65, 3:29:23, World Champion 1500m), he increased the volume that he ran (from 70 miles a week to 80-90 miles a week) and focussed more on endurance. This sort of mileage isn't actually low for a 800/1500 guy like Wightman. And yes he is approaching the event from a different end of the spectrum, as he's also ranked 3rd in the world for 800m right now.
“I’ve always said that I’m in the wrong era for the way that I run,” says Wightman, who had gotten used to relying on his 800 speed in the closing stages of races. “If I was racing 10 years ago, every race would be like how I’d like it to be, which is slow with a fast last lap.”
So, he realized, if you can’t beat the likes of Ingebrigtsen and defending world champ Timothy Cheruiyot of Kenya at their own game, he had to join them. “The race won’t change because I want that, so I have to therefore change to how the races have become, because Jakob is so strong,” he says. “His best interest is to make the race fast, and there’s nothing we can do about that, apart from trying to be able to run at that pace as well.”
Over the winter he raised his weekly mileage to highs of more than 80 per week (up from just around 70 in previous seasons) with an increased focus on tempo runs. “The stuff I changed over winter was so that I could get through the rounds better, which is what I did,” he says. “I tried to conserve as much energy because I knew that by that third day you’re going to need to run a PB or close to it to have a chance to win it.”
I remember reading that seb didn't count warm-up/cooldowns/slower mileage as training. "Junk mileage". So when they reference his low mileage, that is only counting his harder sessions + faster runs. Marius was surprised by that. In actuality, he ran quite a lot.
Same with El G. Didn't count his slower stuff as training.
Nonsense. In "Better training for distance runners" there are examples from Seb´s logs, and every metter of running is recorded - including warm ups and cool downs.
FALSE. The sample weeks in BTDR for Coe have mileage totals that don't even add up to the stated reps and tempos, much less the accessory running that was not recorded. The book was a fraud on the mileage issue.
And Horwill...let's just say that by adding a day or two of easy jogging between the daily sessions would give a decent overall training plan, if rather unreasonable on the intensity of the sessions.
Tim Hutchings :
"TH: Frank had a lovely charisma that came through when he was coaching. Kids would come to Crystal Palace track [south of London] from 150 miles away for long days of training. The squad was maybe 15 kids between age 12 and 18 and another 10 or 15 between age 18 and 30. And we’d do these huge, great sessions. We did things like 96 100s and 48 200s and 24 400s. Kids gravitated toward Frank because of his reputation, and he churned out loads and loads of British champions in the age ranks. But he had less experience coaching someone at senior level who was trying to get to world class. Between ’84 and ’86 I was struggling with shin problems and other things and was getting a little disillusioned with Frank’s training. His philosophy was that if you weren’t hurting like hell and absolutely on your hands and knees at the end of a session, you weren’t training hard enough. And I began to see other guys’ training and realized that it wasn’t all about banging your head against a brick wall. You didn’t have to go out and do ten 500s to sharpen up. Maybe you could do three 500s with six minutes rest when you’ve got a mile a few days away."
Tim ran his best when he left Frank and coached himself on a more realistic level.
Good points. Jake still talks about running most of his runs at faster than 6 min pace though. That is a very Horwill or coe way of doing things.
It's also interesting to compare his training to Josh Kerr who runs most of his mileage slow often running 8 min miles. He doesn't run high mileage either maxing out at about 70. Kerr seems to include regular threshold work and longer tempos. They both have similar PRS. I don't think it's necessary to be running all easy runs fast providing you do threshold work outs and tempo runs regularly for hard days. All it does it increase risk of injury.
“One of the powerful aids in training is the athlete must believe in what he is doing is good for him. And if you’ve got a pattern in which you’ve achieved success on you’re very loathe to change it.
“It’s not just superstition, but it’s a feeling. And this is the same with environment, and the same with everything else. Success tends to breed more. You get confident from succeeding with what you’ve done.
“In terms of the kind of intensity in training and the speed endurance with which I’ve put to Seth, I think I’ve opened one or two people’s eyes, and one or two doors.”