Kaxxe wrote:
Eliud could no longer break 27 minutes a decade ago. What the hell happened to completely transform him into the best long distance runner who ever lived?
That must be the most ingenuous question I've read here.
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63
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Lots of runners have found success at the marathon after their track career was maxed out. Paul Tergat, Gebreselassie, Rupp, etc. But Kipchoge was able to take it so much further because there really hasn't ever been a runner who was so perfectly designed for the marathon. Kipchoge has the most efficient stride of any runner that has ever lived. Combine that with his monastic training regimen (where would Wanjiru and other be today if they had Kipchoge's discipline and focus), the super shoes and a few decades of improvement in marathon training technique captured astutely by Patrick Sang, and you get the greatest marathoner of all time.
291 -
Precious Roy wrote:
Lots of runners have found success at the marathon after their track career was maxed out. Paul Tergat, Gebreselassie, Rupp, etc. But Kipchoge was able to take it so much further because there really hasn't ever been a runner who was so perfectly designed for the marathon. Kipchoge has the most efficient stride of any runner that has ever lived. Combine that with his monastic training regimen (where would Wanjiru and other be today if they had Kipchoge's discipline and focus), the super shoes and a few decades of improvement in marathon training technique captured astutely by Patrick Sang, and you get the greatest marathoner of all time.
You left out the point that he is getting faster as he nears forty, and is far superior to any other athlete in the event, past or present. The human body naturally ages - except apparently for some Kenyan distance runners. But then I don't believe what they are doing is natural. Defying human biology can only be achieved by doping.
1218 -
Kipchoge's 5000m progression. Runs 13:13 as a 17 year old, 12:52 at 18, and his pb 12:46 at 19. This is very similar to Nijel Amos, except at least Amos had the excuse of being pulled around by Rudisha in that 2012 final. Progression is halted as soon as EPO testing is introduced. Moves to the roads the same year as the first ABP sanction was made.
2002 (17) 13:13
2003 (18) 12:52
2004 (19) 12:46
EPO testing is introduced
2005 (20) 12:50
2006 (21) 12:54
2007 (22) 12:50
2008 (23) 13:02
2009 (24) 12:56
2010 (25) 12:51
2011 (26) 12:59
2012 (27) 12:55
First ABP doping offence sanction. Kipchoge moves to the roads.1021 -
50 x 1k
10 cans of red bull
And an epo infusion
85 -
Coevett wrote:
Kipchoge's 5000m progression. Runs 13:13 as a 17 year old, 12:52 at 18, and his pb 12:46 at 19. This is very similar to Nijel Amos, except at least Amos had the excuse of being pulled around by Rudisha in that 2012 final. Progression is halted as soon as EPO testing is introduced. Moves to the roads the same year as the first ABP sanction was made.
2002 (17) 13:13
2003 (18) 12:52
2004 (19) 12:46
EPO testing is introduced
2005 (20) 12:50
2006 (21) 12:54
2007 (22) 12:50
2008 (23) 13:02
2009 (24) 12:56
2010 (25) 12:51
2011 (26) 12:59
2012 (27) 12:55
First ABP doping offence sanction. Kipchoge moves to the roads..I don't quite understand the importance of the ABP thing considering he gets tested OOC and is subject to the exact same rules on the roads as on the track.
The biggest mystery is why Kipchoge wasn't good at the 10,000, really. He was still good at the 3K/5K as evidenced by an 8:07 2 mile FTW indoors, a 7:31 3K (runner-up), and a 12:55 5,000 (even well back). You could maybe ask the same for Hellen Obiri up until this year, but then she was a whisker away from winning Gold at Worlds in the 10,000.
Kipchoge was definitely a natural on the roads. Running 59:25 (in old shoes) in his debut at the tail end of a track season would be akin to Barega/Cheptegei running 58:30 in their first try (or equivalent performance competitively). Barega did his best this past season but got beaten handily by Kiplimo. So you wouldn't tap him to be a natural at it like you might with Kipchoge considering he built on it in 2013 with strong HMs/full. Kiplimo seems to be the nearest prospect we've had in road running.92 -
Barega run 12:43 in 2018
Then his progression stopped after 2020
Do they introduce new tests that lead to the new 12:35 WR?
32 -
So take a man who was 27 years old and apparently past his prime. He could no longer break 27 minutes for 10000m. He had been a world class runner for close to a decade at that point. A decade later one could picture this guy running 28:40 or so. But a decade later this guy can run 28:40, 28:40, 28:40, 28:40 PLUS 1.4 more miles at that pace. Sure the shoes are a big factor here BUT what can this guy run for 10000m now a decade after he appeared to be past his prime? Does everyone agree it might be a bit faster than 28:40?
150 -
THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:
Coevett wrote:
Kipchoge's 5000m progression. Runs 13:13 as a 17 year old, 12:52 at 18, and his pb 12:46 at 19. This is very similar to Nijel Amos, except at least Amos had the excuse of being pulled around by Rudisha in that 2012 final. Progression is halted as soon as EPO testing is introduced. Moves to the roads the same year as the first ABP sanction was made.
2002 (17) 13:13
2003 (18) 12:52
2004 (19) 12:46
EPO testing is introduced
2005 (20) 12:50
2006 (21) 12:54
2007 (22) 12:50
2008 (23) 13:02
2009 (24) 12:56
2010 (25) 12:51
2011 (26) 12:59
2012 (27) 12:55
First ABP doping offence sanction. Kipchoge moves to the roads..I don't quite understand the importance of the ABP thing considering he gets tested OOC and is subject to the exact same rules on the roads as on the track.
The biggest mystery is why Kipchoge wasn't good at the 10,000, really. He was still good at the 3K/5K as evidenced by an 8:07 2 mile FTW indoors, a 7:31 3K (runner-up), and a 12:55 5,000 (even well back). You could maybe ask the same for Hellen Obiri up until this year, but then she was a whisker away from winning Gold at Worlds in the 10,000.
Kipchoge was definitely a natural on the roads. Running 59:25 (in old shoes) in his debut at the tail end of a track season would be akin to Barega/Cheptegei running 58:30 in their first try (or equivalent performance competitively). Barega did his best this past season but got beaten handily by Kiplimo. So you wouldn't tap him to be a natural at it like you might with Kipchoge considering he built on it in 2013 with strong HMs/full. Kiplimo seems to be the nearest prospect we've had in road running.
Correct…one would have expected Kipchoge to be capable of 26:27, at least, meaning what Paul Tergat did.
So the US half marathon record is 59:43 and Eliud can now go out at that pace as if he is on a relaxing stroll. Eliud can average 1:00:34 for a marathon. So here we have an aging runner who can run a full marathon at a pace which maybe only a handful of US runners can do for a half marathon? Astounding is what it is.
52 -
Lest we forget…
62 -
"What is Suspension Of Disbelief?"
20 -
Kaxxe wrote:
Correct…one would have expected Kipchoge to be capable of 26:27, at least, meaning what Paul Tergat did.
So the US half marathon record is 59:43 and Eliud can now go out at that pace as if he is on a relaxing stroll. Eliud can average 1:00:34 for a marathon. So here we have an aging runner who can run a full marathon at a pace which maybe only a handful of US runners can do for a half marathon? Astounding is what it is.
Says more about the US than anything. Grant Fisher is what 30-40 seconds better than the next best guy (Klecker? Woody?) in a well-paced time trial at 10,000? So he could run 58-something, but yes the drop-off behind him is immense. Suspect Mantz, Klecker and Woody could all put together a fast (sub-60) HM, if it was their priority.
30 -
Kaxxe wrote:
Lest we forget…
There is nothing of any substance in that article.
53 -
Kaxxe wrote:
THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:
I don't quite understand the importance of the ABP thing considering he gets tested OOC and is subject to the exact same rules on the roads as on the track.
The biggest mystery is why Kipchoge wasn't good at the 10,000, really. He was still good at the 3K/5K as evidenced by an 8:07 2 mile FTW indoors, a 7:31 3K (runner-up), and a 12:55 5,000 (even well back). You could maybe ask the same for Hellen Obiri up until this year, but then she was a whisker away from winning Gold at Worlds in the 10,000.
Kipchoge was definitely a natural on the roads. Running 59:25 (in old shoes) in his debut at the tail end of a track season would be akin to Barega/Cheptegei running 58:30 in their first try (or equivalent performance competitively). Barega did his best this past season but got beaten handily by Kiplimo. So you wouldn't tap him to be a natural at it like you might with Kipchoge considering he built on it in 2013 with strong HMs/full. Kiplimo seems to be the nearest prospect we've had in road running.
Correct…one would have expected Kipchoge to be capable of 26:27, at least, meaning what Paul Tergat did.
So the US half marathon record is 59:43 and Eliud can now go out at that pace as if he is on a relaxing stroll. Eliud can average 1:00:34 for a marathon. So here we have an aging runner who can run a full marathon at a pace which maybe only a handful of US runners can do for a half marathon? Astounding is what it is.
But US distance runners are pretty useless on the roads aren't they?
62 -
Kaxxe wrote:
THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:
I don't quite understand the importance of the ABP thing considering he gets tested OOC and is subject to the exact same rules on the roads as on the track.
The biggest mystery is why Kipchoge wasn't good at the 10,000, really. He was still good at the 3K/5K as evidenced by an 8:07 2 mile FTW indoors, a 7:31 3K (runner-up), and a 12:55 5,000 (even well back). You could maybe ask the same for Hellen Obiri up until this year, but then she was a whisker away from winning Gold at Worlds in the 10,000.
Kipchoge was definitely a natural on the roads. Running 59:25 (in old shoes) in his debut at the tail end of a track season would be akin to Barega/Cheptegei running 58:30 in their first try (or equivalent performance competitively). Barega did his best this past season but got beaten handily by Kiplimo. So you wouldn't tap him to be a natural at it like you might with Kipchoge considering he built on it in 2013 with strong HMs/full. Kiplimo seems to be the nearest prospect we've had in road running.
Correct…one would have expected Kipchoge to be capable of 26:27, at least, meaning what Paul Tergat did.
So the US half marathon record is 59:43 and Eliud can now go out at that pace as if he is on a relaxing stroll. Eliud can average 1:00:34 for a marathon. So here we have an aging runner who can run a full marathon at a pace which maybe only a handful of US runners can do for a half marathon? Astounding is what it is.
After 2022 Berlin Marathon, attempting to tie a discussion regarding E.K. to a discussion of U.S. distance running is useless. Only a hand full of U.S. 1/2 Marathoners & U.S. Marathoners are faster than elite women, globally at 1/2 Marathon & Marathon. The relevant discussion: E.K. went from a guy who was a very good 5000m guy, a runner who was a medal contender in the early 00's at 5000m to a guy who has no peers at Marathon. Skip the U.S. analysis. E.K. has no competition from Kenyans, Ethiopians or Ugandans at Marathon. I find it strange.
43 -
Lest we also forget that of the 20 top Kenyan marathoners between 2016 - 2020, five have been suspended or banned for anti-doping offences. Hopefully all the bad apples have been caught. I would say though, that for most rational people, 25% doping bust rate doesn't look good for the odds of the guy who is seconds faster than them at 37 being squeeky clean.
2. Wilson Kipsang
4. Lawrence Cherono
17. Sammy Kitwara
19. Daniel Kinyua
20. Abraham Kiptum38 -
THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:
Coevett wrote:
Kipchoge's 5000m progression. Runs 13:13 as a 17 year old, 12:52 at 18, and his pb 12:46 at 19. This is very similar to Nijel Amos, except at least Amos had the excuse of being pulled around by Rudisha in that 2012 final. Progression is halted as soon as EPO testing is introduced. Moves to the roads the same year as the first ABP sanction was made.
2002 (17) 13:13
2003 (18) 12:52
2004 (19) 12:46
EPO testing is introduced
2005 (20) 12:50
2006 (21) 12:54
2007 (22) 12:50
2008 (23) 13:02
2009 (24) 12:56
2010 (25) 12:51
2011 (26) 12:59
2012 (27) 12:55
First ABP doping offence sanction. Kipchoge moves to the roads..I don't quite understand the importance of the ABP thing considering he gets tested OOC and is subject to the exact same rules on the roads as on the track.
The biggest mystery is why Kipchoge wasn't good at the 10,000, really. He was still good at the 3K/5K as evidenced by an 8:07 2 mile FTW indoors, a 7:31 3K (runner-up), and a 12:55 5,000 (even well back). You could maybe ask the same for Hellen Obiri up until this year, but then she was a whisker away from winning Gold at Worlds in the 10,000.
Kipchoge was definitely a natural on the roads. Running 59:25 (in old shoes) in his debut at the tail end of a track season would be akin to Barega/Cheptegei running 58:30 in their first try (or equivalent performance competitively). Barega did his best this past season but got beaten handily by Kiplimo. So you wouldn't tap him to be a natural at it like you might with Kipchoge considering he built on it in 2013 with strong HMs/full. Kiplimo seems to be the nearest prospect we've had in road running.
There is no money in the 10000. The list of guys with fast 5ks and slow 10ks is pretty long...
There is a long history of guys running fast marathons around 35-38. They all drop off by 40. Granted kipchoge dropping off is going to be running a 2:05....
Marathon is sort of unique in that it isn't all about aerobic power like the 5000-hm. Ability to not run out of fuel or have the legs not break down matter a lot. If you have 27min 10k speed and your are a natural marathoner, you are running down around 2:03. See all the Japanese guys who are 28min guys and running 2:08s... Just not a lot of guys who are both fast and marathoners...
50 -
*minutes faster
02 -
that doesn\'t make sense wrote:
Kaxxe wrote:
Correct…one would have expected Kipchoge to be capable of 26:27, at least, meaning what Paul Tergat did.
So the US half marathon record is 59:43 and Eliud can now go out at that pace as if he is on a relaxing stroll. Eliud can average 1:00:34 for a marathon. So here we have an aging runner who can run a full marathon at a pace which maybe only a handful of US runners can do for a half marathon? Astounding is what it is.
After 2022 Berlin Marathon, attempting to tie a discussion regarding E.K. to a discussion of U.S. distance running is useless. Only a hand full of U.S. 1/2 Marathoners & U.S. Marathoners are faster than elite women, globally at 1/2 Marathon & Marathon. The relevant discussion: E.K. went from a guy who was a very good 5000m guy, a runner who was a medal contender in the early 00's at 5000m to a guy who has no peers at Marathon. Skip the U.S. analysis. E.K. has no competition from Kenyans, Ethiopians or Ugandans at Marathon. I find it strange.
Of course my analysis is relevant. We have a situation where only maybe a handful of US runners could run half of Eliud’s marathon. Can you think of any other time in history where this would be the case? Of course not.
04
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