“We have two categories in our sport: one is age and one is gender. Age because we think it’s better that Olympic champions don’t run against 14-year-olds in community sports. And gender because if you don’t have a gender separation, no woman would ever win another sporting event.
“We’ve always been guided by the science, and the science is pretty clear: we know that testosterone is the key determinant in performance. I’m really over having any more of these discussions with second-rate sociologists who sit there trying to tell me or the science community that there may be some issue. There isn’t. Testosterone is the key determinant in performance.”..
“Amazing”? Lol
He’s not really logically consistent here. The categories are divided by gender, not testosterone.
Do you think both SEXES produce the same testosterone, on average?
He’s not really logically consistent here. The categories are divided by gender, not testosterone.
Do you think both SEXES produce the same testosterone, on average?
No. But nor do they produce equivalent levels of testosterone amongst individuals. Don you think Bolt ran 9.58 simply because he has a higher testosterone level than any other human being?
Those second rate sociologists are wondering if he meant sex, not gender.
Yep, and that's probably why he's tired of it.
Arguing semantics of language while conveniently ignoring the facts.
It’s not just “semantics”. The distinction is central to the issue, especially for someone speaking authoritatively on the matter.
Recognizing the distinction is to your advantage (assuming you can’t care less about trans based on your response) because otherwise, as far as the government is concerned, trans women are women and discrimination is illegal. CAS is never going back to denying trans people their identity altogether, but they will continue to be open to arguments based on science on the nature of the differences between biological sex and gender.
Rojo is like another right winger. He likes rules until he doesn't. He is all for hard rules with regard to testosterone but he spends days whining about reaction time rules because it affects an American
Do you think both SEXES produce the same testosterone, on average?
No. But nor do they produce equivalent levels of testosterone amongst individuals. Don you think Bolt ran 9.58 simply because he has a higher testosterone level than any other human being?
I think I am the president. Don't deny me my identity. Some women think they are fat while they are dangerously thin. Some people think they are possesed. Some people think they are a cat.
Read up dude. WA and CAS have long moved well beyond this kind of simple-minded dismissiveness. Otherwise you’d sound like those opposing gay marriage by asking if people would soon want to marry their dog.
You can make reasoned arguments for excluding trans women from women’s sport without resorting to such dismissiveness.
I'm not sure when Coe made these comments - might have been yesterday - but he deserves A LOT of praise for standing firm on this. Some of these quotes are amazing.
“We have two categories in our sport: one is age and one is gender. Age because we think it’s better that Olympic champions don’t run against 14-year-olds in community sports. And gender because if you don’t have a gender separation, no woman would ever win another sporting event.
“We’ve always been guided by the science, and the science is pretty clear: we know that testosterone is the key determinant in performance. I’m really over having any more of these discussions with second-rate sociologists who sit there trying to tell me or the science community that there may be some issue. There isn’t. Testosterone is the key determinant in performance.”
Current testosterone levels don’t present the complete picture. WA’s own commissioned studies couldn’t confirm testosterone as a performance determinant in some track events unlike others. The “science” could change, but it is where it is at this point.
Well hey, if we can’t specifically quantify the differences that influence performance, then maybe we should just combine men and women into one category? Since the testosterone data is so flimsy apparently, why even bother with separation? It’ll be more fair to everyone this way.
Do you think both SEXES produce the same testosterone, on average?
No. But nor do they produce equivalent levels of testosterone amongst individuals. Don you think Bolt ran 9.58 simply because he has a higher testosterone level than any other human being?
Well here's the thing, the distribution of testosterone levels of men vs women is bimodal and does not overlap. Meaning that even women whose testosterone is at the high end of the female range will still be lower than men at the low end of male range, in terms of testosterone levels. The only exceptions that have been found, are women with polycystic ovary syndrome, whose testosterone exceeds the lower bounds of male testosterone levels.
While I don't agree with making the male/female divisions based on testosterone levels alone, this is why testosterone is brought up as a talking point.
I'm not sure when Coe made these comments - might have been yesterday - but he deserves A LOT of praise for standing firm on this. Some of these quotes are amazing.
“We have two categories in our sport: one is age and one is gender. Age because we think it’s better that Olympic champions don’t run against 14-year-olds in community sports. And gender because if you don’t have a gender separation, no woman would ever win another sporting event.
“We’ve always been guided by the science, and the science is pretty clear: we know that testosterone is the key determinant in performance. I’m really over having any more of these discussions with second-rate sociologists who sit there trying to tell me or the science community that there may be some issue. There isn’t. Testosterone is the key determinant in performance.”
If you are born with male parts then you are most likely to be a male.
If you are born with female parts then mostly a female.
If you are born intersex , which doesn't happen that often , then you should get your T level checked to determine which events you should enter, male or female. It difficult for me to understand how a male can gain solace knowing he's a male that competes against women and takes pride in beating them. Something is not right in the head of this person.
The science isn't there. The big problem has been that when you start testing all the women athletes, you start finding athletes who on the surface appear to be cis gender, "all female" biologically but actually have chromosomal abnormalities or outlier levels of testosterone. The idea that you can have a test that will just weed out the Caster Semenyas who are competitively superior to other female athletes is pretty naive at this point.
Even worse is that some states in the US have enacted gender testing requirements that include very invasive examinations of female genitalia (including taking measurements of a certain part of the body men are notorious for not being able to find) and allow any competitor to call into question whether an athlete is female.
In the end, you are just going to end up with a "I know one when I see one" standard with objective standards only being used when someone is successful competitively.
If the "science isn't there" to determine the differences between men and women then either those differences don't exist or we don't know what they are. That is wrong on both counts. The great majority of individuals are clearly either male or female according to common biological criteria; we are almost all male or female and not located on some kind of continuum between the two. There will be a few individuals who share some of the characteristics of both sexes/genders. In sport that is only relevant if certain characteristics these individuals have are definably male, such as male levels of testosterone, which are known to give males the general performance advantages they have over females. For that reason, a division that is based on the differences between male and female testosterone levels is as good as any.
I pointed out real world examples but are being dismissive of thousands of people who believe they are cats (furries) and others who think they are overweight. Seems like you have certain groups that you are biased for and against.
“We have two categories in our sport: one is age and one is gender. Age because we think it’s better that Olympic champions don’t run against 14-year-olds in community sports. And gender because if you don’t have a gender separation, no woman would ever win another sporting event.
“We’ve always been guided by the science, and the science is pretty clear: we know that testosterone is the key determinant in performance. I’m really over having any more of these discussions with second-rate sociologists who sit there trying to tell me or the science community that there may be some issue. There isn’t. Testosterone is the key determinant in performance.”..
“Amazing”? Lol
He’s not really logically consistent here. The categories are divided by gender, not testosterone.
The sexes are divided by testosterone levels, among other features. That is quite apparent from what he is saying.
Seb Coe isn't even a second rate scientist. what a clown...so of course Rojo will parrot his disgusting views.
Sebastian Coe is out of his league here. He is second rate at everything he has done EXCEPT middle distance running where his artificially enhanced testosterone levels and talent permitted him to be a superstar. Sebastian has parlayed that into a career where he has proven to be a second rate mind.
Seb Coe isn't even a second rate scientist. what a clown...so of course Rojo will parrot his disgusting views.
Sebastian Coe is out of his league here. He is second rate at everything he has done EXCEPT middle distance running where his artificially enhanced testosterone levels and talent permitted him to be a superstar. Sebastian has parlayed that into a career where he has proven to be a second rate mind.
You appear to have first hand experience of a second rate mind.