I agree that watching track sucks in its current form. But that's not Fisher's fault.
His 12:53 was set in the deepest indoor 5k in the world this year, with Ahmed running 12:56, Scott 12:57, Bor 13:00, etc. That is certainly "real competition".
Are you talking about Jakob when you say "they are here now"? Because he was a very very last minute entry at Sound Running. Other than Jakob, there is nobody else in the US currently (other than his teammates) that would give him an interesting race that wouldn't look like a time trial. So I'm not sure what would satisfy you.
I think there's a meet this weekend. Called the Diamond League or something.
Correct. Here's the problem: Athletes' contracts are incentivized for global championships and records. In order to qualify for global championships, you need a time standard. So an athlete will typically race their main events only ONCE prior to championships to get a standard, typically in a time trial type setup as this has the best chance of success. Then, they will train the remainder of the time until the global championship, and avoid racing since racing in random meets gives them no financial benefit and increases their industry risk. Jakob himself said he would have been content just to jog the 5k standard at Sound running, but was too competitive to not go for the win. If he already had the standard, he would not have run that race. There is ZERO incentive to race if you already have the standard.
The current system disincentivizes racing head to heat and incentivizes time trials. It's not the athlete's fault.
There is a fair amount of money to be won on the circuit if you can win/place at Diamond Leagues and even win the DL Trophy. Not to mention appearance fees. You can also secure a bye for the next Championships (unless your country has the defending champ). So ZERO incentive would be incorrect.
I think the actual problem USA-wise is with a lot of the coaches/agents who are control freaks. They don't want their athletes overseas and on their own for large spurts. They second-guess racing more than the bare minimum, and they think their training (with minimal to no racing) is better for their athlete than letting them get their feet went. They at most want to "pick their spots." There are plenty of athletes who succeed without these sort of constraints, so it's somewhat frustrating seeing a time trial, Pre, some low-key Sound Running meet or college race, and then that's it until Worlds.
Regardless of the accuracy of the OPs comments, the fact remains that many if not most fans of the sport are saddened that head to head competition is often disincentivized at the pro level. The problem does not rest with any particular athlete, like Fisher or Teare, nor any particular club. At the end of the day, the essence of the sport is head to head racing, and collectively better efforts should be made to have this happen more often. Has Hassan raced even once in 2022?
Correct. Here's the problem: Athletes' contracts are incentivized for global championships and records. In order to qualify for global championships, you need a time standard. So an athlete will typically race their main events only ONCE prior to championships to get a standard, typically in a time trial type setup as this has the best chance of success. Then, they will train the remainder of the time until the global championship, and avoid racing since racing in random meets gives them no financial benefit and increases their industry risk. Jakob himself said he would have been content just to jog the 5k standard at Sound running, but was too competitive to not go for the win. If he already had the standard, he would not have run that race. There is ZERO incentive to race if you already have the standard.
The current system disincentivizes racing head to heat and incentivizes time trials. It's not the athlete's fault.
Jakob ran XC last winter, one or two setup road 5K events like nearly everyone did during the pandemic last year , and also DL races and the Olympics. If you're on one of our weird Nike groups, you race twice a year. Maybe.
USATF has said that he must run the 10,000 to qualify for Worlds. This is not necessarily Grant’s choice.
The 10,000 will not be contested at USATF‘s this year.
"This is not necessarily Grant’s choice."
I am hearing this a lot. Grant is a grown man with a degree from Stanford. I am pretty sure if he wants to run a certain event or gear his schedule a certain way he has the ability to do so. Josh Thompson ran indoors for Bowerman. The only guy.
"Jerry, instead of running my 683rd Time Trial with Marc Scott and Woody Kincaid can I please run against the WORLD CLASS competition at the Pre Fontaine Classic." That's all he has to say.
He is the glaring hole in this meet. Our best runner is running a 10K for time (of course) instead.
p.s. I am so worked up about this because I bought a bunch of tickets and am taking some kids to this meet. "You get to see everyone but Grant Fisher."
You have no idea what you're talking about. In order for Grant to run in 10k at the world championships, he MUST race the 10k the night before Pre. It is the US TRIALS.
So if he wants to run the 10k at the world championships, he does NOT have a choice. This is not a time trial, this is the US TRIALS.
Correct. Here's the problem: Athletes' contracts are incentivized for global championships and records. In order to qualify for global championships, you need a time standard. So an athlete will typically race their main events only ONCE prior to championships to get a standard, typically in a time trial type setup as this has the best chance of success. Then, they will train the remainder of the time until the global championship, and avoid racing since racing in random meets gives them no financial benefit and increases their industry risk. Jakob himself said he would have been content just to jog the 5k standard at Sound running, but was too competitive to not go for the win. If he already had the standard, he would not have run that race. There is ZERO incentive to race if you already have the standard.
The current system disincentivizes racing head to heat and incentivizes time trials. It's not the athlete's fault.
Jakob ran XC last winter, one or two setup road 5K events like nearly everyone did during the pandemic last year , and also DL races and the Olympics. If you're on one of our weird Nike groups, you race twice a year. Maybe.
Jakob is an exception. He races everything. It is also much easier when you're located in Europe compared to the American west coast.
Correct. Here's the problem: Athletes' contracts are incentivized for global championships and records. In order to qualify for global championships, you need a time standard. So an athlete will typically race their main events only ONCE prior to championships to get a standard, typically in a time trial type setup as this has the best chance of success. Then, they will train the remainder of the time until the global championship, and avoid racing since racing in random meets gives them no financial benefit and increases their industry risk. Jakob himself said he would have been content just to jog the 5k standard at Sound running, but was too competitive to not go for the win. If he already had the standard, he would not have run that race. There is ZERO incentive to race if you already have the standard.
The current system disincentivizes racing head to heat and incentivizes time trials. It's not the athlete's fault.
There is a fair amount of money to be won on the circuit if you can win/place at Diamond Leagues and even win the DL Trophy. Not to mention appearance fees. You can also secure a bye for the next Championships (unless your country has the defending champ). So ZERO incentive would be incorrect.
I think the actual problem USA-wise is with a lot of the coaches/agents who are control freaks. They don't want their athletes overseas and on their own for large spurts. They second-guess racing more than the bare minimum, and they think their training (with minimal to no racing) is better for their athlete than letting them get their feet went. They at most want to "pick their spots." There are plenty of athletes who succeed without these sort of constraints, so it's somewhat frustrating seeing a time trial, Pre, some low-key Sound Running meet or college race, and then that's it until Worlds.
I was being hyperbolic. I really think it's a simple cost-benefit analysis. If there was enough money to be made by racing every Diamond league race, then we'd see more BTC athletes running them.
I really think the bonus structure gives outsized rewards to making world teams. I'd love to see a real contract though.
Correct. Here's the problem: Athletes' contracts are incentivized for global championships and records. In order to qualify for global championships, you need a time standard. So an athlete will typically race their main events only ONCE prior to championships to get a standard, typically in a time trial type setup as this has the best chance of success. Then, they will train the remainder of the time until the global championship, and avoid racing since racing in random meets gives them no financial benefit and increases their industry risk. Jakob himself said he would have been content just to jog the 5k standard at Sound running, but was too competitive to not go for the win. If he already had the standard, he would not have run that race. There is ZERO incentive to race if you already have the standard.
The current system disincentivizes racing head to heat and incentivizes time trials. It's not the athlete's fault.
1) Let’s ditch the standards for athletes from top countries based on historical results; 2) Let’s qualify for the championship teams based on a point system weighted by the strength of competition. Placing top 3 at nationals can be assigned enough points to ensure that everybody would run to win and not overly dilute this competition. Yes, the change would take getting used to, but wouldn’t it incentivize racing and increase the entertainment value of the sport? It is a sport, after all.
The problem is that Fisher is just so much better than EVERY other American right now that all his record attempts just look like time trials with him and Moh Ahmed, since he's 200m ahead of the next best American. I'd much rather see Grant run his ARs on AMERICAN SOIL than fly halfway across the world to place 3rd in some Diamond league time trial that nobody watches.
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So, he is so good that no american can touch him but at the same time he has to duck international competition? Right. PS, diamond league has some tens of millions of viewers each meet. "Nobody"?
Regardless of the accuracy of the OPs comments, the fact remains that many if not most fans of the sport are saddened that head to head competition is often disincentivized at the pro level. The problem does not rest with any particular athlete, like Fisher or Teare, nor any particular club. At the end of the day, the essence of the sport is head to head racing, and collectively better efforts should be made to have this happen more often. Has Hassan raced even once in 2022?
I respectfully disagree, we have had two(?), three(?) seasons with Ingebrigtsen going head to head with Cheruiyot consistently. Head to head competition happens, but certain athletes don't show up.
Jakob ran XC last winter, one or two setup road 5K events like nearly everyone did during the pandemic last year , and also DL races and the Olympics. If you're on one of our weird Nike groups, you race twice a year. Maybe.
Jakob is an exception. He races everything. It is also much easier when you're located in Europe compared to the American west coast.
Didn't he literally just race in the US? Dont know why thats easier while living in Europe....
I was being hyperbolic. I really think it's a simple cost-benefit analysis. If there was enough money to be made by racing every Diamond league race, then we'd see more BTC athletes running them.
I really think the bonus structure gives outsized rewards to making world teams. I'd love to see a real contract though.
No, Jerry doesn't work like that. He doesn't care about money, he cares about making teams and medals. Yes those are two huge determinants for bonuses and other things, so you can say in the abstract the incentive isn't there. He completely controls their schedules with some communication in certain situations e.g. letting Fisher choose to go for ARs over indoor medals. But there's no way if he got an athlete that was trying to maximize their earnings he would be OK with them racing 6 times in Europe. That would objectively make more money, but it would be at odds with his philosophy.
So? Why is it harder for Fischer vs all other nationalities to travel there? Allways an excuse.
You want him to go all the way to Doha two weeks before the US trials to run a 1500? This thread in unhinged. Plenty of criticism to go around about the typical BTC racing schedule, but this aint it.
So? Why is it harder for Fischer vs all other nationalities to travel there? Allways an excuse.
You want him to go all the way to Doha two weeks before the US trials to run a 1500? This thread in unhinged. Plenty of criticism to go around about the typical BTC racing schedule, but this aint it.
When did I say that? I asked why other nationalities (and far better athletes) could go to Doha while Fischer couldn't? There is allways a perfectly good excuse for ducking meets, the strange thing is when better athletes show up at these meets.
You want him to go all the way to Doha two weeks before the US trials to run a 1500? This thread in unhinged. Plenty of criticism to go around about the typical BTC racing schedule, but this aint it.
When did I say that? I asked why other nationalities (and far better athletes) could go to Doha while Fischer couldn't? There is allways a perfectly good excuse for ducking meets, the strange thing is when better athletes show up at these meets.
So what do you want Fisher to run at Doha then? Maybe the 3K steeple is more to your liking? Or should he hop down to the 800m while hes there. Ill wait for an answer but I know its not coming.
This post is so incredibly uninformed. Fisher ran 12:53 at a MASSIVE BU meet with tons of fans and other athletes. The race was so stacked that the B HEAT was won in 13:05, and the A heat had many other top class Americans in addition to all the BTC studs (Ahmed, Scott, etc). Guess what, Rupp ran his 5k AR at BU as well, at a smaller meet than Fisher.
The 10k AR had tons of fans and competitors too. I think like 10 guys ran under 27:20 in that meet. This was one of the deepest American 10k races ever.
The problem is that Fisher is just so much better than EVERY other American right now that all his record attempts just look like time trials with him and Moh Ahmed, since he's 200m ahead of the next best American. I'd much rather see Grant run his ARs on AMERICAN SOIL than fly halfway across the world to place 3rd in some Diamond league time trial that nobody watches.
And yeah, sorry, but indoors is a total joke of an event. His American Record 10k was much more impressive to me than any world indoor medal could have been (no offense to Ryan Hall, but even he has an indoor silver).
It's also not his decision to hold the US 10000m trials the night before Pre. I guarantee that if the trials were held in June he would be running Pre, as his Nike contract would likely stipulate. Rant over.
Thank you for stating informed fact and opinion.
I’ll add, Grant wanted to run USA 3k and go to worlds if he made the team but he also had to consider his training cycle at altitude and what that would have meant training and racing wise. he said as much and more in one of his podcasts.
it’s a world championship year folks. training is geared to that. Bowerman is currently at altitude. am sure Grant would have liked to race the 5k at Pre but USATF has the US 10 k champs and world champs qualifier Friday night at Pre.
can’t do everything and be every place.
It was amazing to watch the BU meet and the outdoor 10k. these were races - not time trials.
