He does double threshold (tuesday and thursday) with usually one of those being track (1 each of those days=2 a week). At least thats how I heard the norwegian system is.
A threshold workout can be 20-25x400m at threshold lactacte, which could be around 5k pace.. So lots of "speed work". But since its only 400m it is still threshold lactacte level and heart rate.
Listen to "Conversations about running" podcast with another elite runner Simen Halle, whose grandpa was one of the guys that implemented the system. He explains it well.
So when Jakob says no speed work or whatever, he probably means really really fast stuff (1500m).
He does double threshold (tuesday and thursday) with usually one of those being track (1 each of those days=2 a week). At least thats how I heard the norwegian system is.
A threshold workout can be 20-25x400m at threshold lactacte, which could be around 5k pace.. So lots of "speed work". But since its only 400m it is still threshold lactacte level and heart rate.
Listen to "Conversations about running" podcast with another elite runner Simen Halle, whose grandpa was one of the guys that implemented the system. He explains it well.
So when Jakob says no speed work or whatever, he probably means really really fast stuff (1500m).
400s @ 5K pace with :30R is a hard workout and going to be well over 3.2 mmol, regardless of what meter you're using.
The hills are akin to VO2 max work 6-8 mmol and they are doing 4K of that work weekly. The speed work he's talking about is their 400-300-200s at 5k-1500m pace which they are probably going to start two months out from Worlds, so next week.
For Norwegians, this seems to be just the icing on the cake. He still can easily close faster than almost all 5k runners, especially in a meet like Friday, but he will need the speed work to close out the likes of the Ethiopians and Kenyans over 1500m/3000m during the season.
He does double threshold (tuesday and thursday) with usually one of those being track (1 each of those days=2 a week). At least thats how I heard the norwegian system is.
A threshold workout can be 20-25x400m at threshold lactacte, which could be around 5k pace.. So lots of "speed work". But since its only 400m it is still threshold lactacte level and heart rate.
Listen to "Conversations about running" podcast with another elite runner Simen Halle, whose grandpa was one of the guys that implemented the system. He explains it well.
So when Jakob says no speed work or whatever, he probably means really really fast stuff (1500m).
400s @ 5K pace with :30R is a hard workout and going to be well over 3.2 mmol, regardless of what meter you're using.
The hills are akin to VO2 max work 6-8 mmol and they are doing 4K of that work weekly. The speed work he's talking about is their 400-300-200s at 5k-1500m pace which they are probably going to start two months out from Worlds, so next week.
For Norwegians, this seems to be just the icing on the cake. He still can easily close faster than almost all 5k runners, especially in a meet like Friday, but he will need the speed work to close out the likes of the Ethiopians and Kenyans over 1500m/3000m during the season.
I think you're right, I think this is a different approach from many other 1500-5k runners, that are doing more long runs for threshold and the vo2 max work on the track (also other different things)
The engine you need to run 13:02 is built through easy runs, treshold pace workouts, long runs.
I think you still need something faster where you build up over 4 mmol of lactate, uphill repeats could be enough
Yeah indeed.
My post was a bit provocative, but still 90% true. Track sessions are only the icing on the cake to get sharp ONCE you've built the engine through all the other stuff.
Does anyone have any details on the length of the hills they do and the %grade? If that is a supplement for V02max, they would have to be of at least medium distance, no? Or if they are in altitude I guess it doesn’t have to be as long.
So when Jakob says no speed work or whatever, he probably means really really fast stuff (1500m).
Exactly. He's doing a crap-ton of fast running, just hasn't sprinkled in the super fast stuff that will allow him to peak, when he needs to peak. Peaking means higher injury risk, so peaking when he needs to peak, and only when he needs to, is the right move. It's worked well for him so far, so I don't see any reason to doubt him. There are a lot of people to doubt. Jakob I. isn't one I'm worried about.
Does anyone have any details on the length of the hills they do and the %grade? If that is a supplement for V02max, they would have to be of at least medium distance, no? Or if they are in altitude I guess it doesn’t have to be as long.
The "famous" workout that everyone knows (seen from their program in the tv series) is 2x10x200m, this is what they were doing at home like 6 years ago or maybe more (I don't know if they are still doing the same). Also from the tv series you could guess the % grade of the hill, my guess would be between 5 and 10%. The recovery between the reps is just a jog down and I guess they take some minutes between sets
I think you're right, I think this is a different approach from many other 1500-5k runners, that are doing more long runs for threshold and the vo2 max work on the track (also other different things)
Yes it is a different system from many. Though, the two young Oregon guys (Teare, Hocker) have said they see a lot of similarities with what Ben Thomas does. They also didn't hit the track for speedwork (or maybe once) before the Millrose 3k/3:50 mile. It's way different than the Warhurst system as Nick Willis has said. We've seen with Jakob he is pretty much able to race at a very high level all year long, so I wouldn't read too much into comments about speedwork as posters are noting here. It seems to me the Ethiopians who were great indoors (Barega, Girma, Wale) have had similar comments as well. For some athletes, that might be significant when they say it, but I don't think that is the case for many of them.
Good race for Jakob but I put zero stock in the "haven't even started doing speed work" cliche in predicting results later in the season.
The list of runners who have said "haven't started doing speed work" after running what turns out to be a seasons best, or even lifetime best is long.
When you're at the level Jakob is at you don't need to lie about your fitness and or your workouts. Real pro's don't play that game, they just train hard and run fast.
He means specific track sessions like they do before the track season. They do track sessions year round, 4 times a week (two days a week).
Yeah misleading title. They've just been doing a ton of threshold work. So he ran 13:02 in a 13:02 race off of just base work. 14s off of his PB. I think that's more than reasonable. I'm sure many of us can attest that they're never more than 15ish seconds off of their 5k PB through most of the year.
He does double threshold (tuesday and thursday) with usually one of those being track (1 each of those days=2 a week). At least thats how I heard the norwegian system is.
A threshold workout can be 20-25x400m at threshold lactacte, which could be around 5k pace.. So lots of "speed work". But since its only 400m it is still threshold lactacte level and heart rate.
Listen to "Conversations about running" podcast with another elite runner Simen Halle, whose grandpa was one of the guys that implemented the system. He explains it well.
So when Jakob says no speed work or whatever, he probably means really really fast stuff (1500m).
400s @ 5K pace with :30R is a hard workout and going to be well over 3.2 mmol, regardless of what meter you're using.
The hills are akin to VO2 max work 6-8 mmol and they are doing 4K of that work weekly. The speed work he's talking about is their 400-300-200s at 5k-1500m pace which they are probably going to start two months out from Worlds, so next week.
For Norwegians, this seems to be just the icing on the cake. He still can easily close faster than almost all 5k runners, especially in a meet like Friday, but he will need the speed work to close out the likes of the Ethiopians and Kenyans over 1500m/3000m during the season.
You are probably right what I am referring to is probably not doing 30sec rest.. More like 45sec. And I am not fully sure that all 400m's are at 5k race, don't actually recall.
And agree about the speed work you write... They have short periods of speed work before competition.
I think you're right, I think this is a different approach from many other 1500-5k runners, that are doing more long runs for threshold and the vo2 max work on the track (also other different things)
Yes it is a different system from many. Though, the two young Oregon guys (Teare, Hocker) have said they see a lot of similarities with what Ben Thomas does. They also didn't hit the track for speedwork (or maybe once) before the Millrose 3k/3:50 mile. It's way different than the Warhurst system as Nick Willis has said. We've seen with Jakob he is pretty much able to race at a very high level all year long, so I wouldn't read too much into comments about speedwork as posters are noting here. It seems to me the Ethiopians who were great indoors (Barega, Girma, Wale) have had similar comments as well. For some athletes, that might be significant when they say it, but I don't think that is the case for many of them.
Cooper and Cole were being a bit misleading. You can see from Cooper’s Strava that they were doing some 200’s, 150’s and 250’s on the track along with lots of hills. To say they didn’t do any “speed work” is disingenuous.
Yes it is a different system from many. Though, the two young Oregon guys (Teare, Hocker) have said they see a lot of similarities with what Ben Thomas does. They also didn't hit the track for speedwork (or maybe once) before the Millrose 3k/3:50 mile. It's way different than the Warhurst system as Nick Willis has said. We've seen with Jakob he is pretty much able to race at a very high level all year long, so I wouldn't read too much into comments about speedwork as posters are noting here. It seems to me the Ethiopians who were great indoors (Barega, Girma, Wale) have had similar comments as well. For some athletes, that might be significant when they say it, but I don't think that is the case for many of them.
Cooper and Cole were being a bit misleading. You can see from Cooper’s Strava that they were doing some 200’s, 150’s and 250’s on the track along with lots of hills. To say they didn’t do any “speed work” is disingenuous.
“Speed work” is an ambiguous term that clearly means different things to different people.
Don't forget the shoe conversion. A 13:02 is more like 13:17 without the shoes a couple of years ago. This is the new normal, but it important to have context and not make this out to be something it is not.
He is talented and hard working. No doubt he could run ~13:20 early season without specific track sessions, but he is certainly doing threshold / VO2 type intervals regularly and strides to keep his speed pretty sharp.
So Baregas 5,000 from 2018 converts to 12:28? Hassan Mead would actually have been a 12:47 guy with the spikes (Faster than Jakob). Nico didnt even wear the avanti super spikes for the 5,000, so Ill presume he is actually a 12:56 guy already?
Cooper and Cole were being a bit misleading. You can see from Cooper’s Strava that they were doing some 200’s, 150’s and 250’s on the track along with lots of hills. To say they didn’t do any “speed work” is disingenuous.
They do 200s before every race fast as a pre-race routine. And they like Jakob do a lot of hill training year-round. But like him they consider speed work to be hard and lengthy track sessions at 1,500-5,000 race pace. So we're not really disagreeing here, just noting that by how guys in more threshold-based systems operate they're not lying when they say it, but they don't consider a lot of things "speed work" that are faster/more intense running.
Super spikes are probably somehow beneficial for sub-elite athletes (say 13:30 - 14:00 range), with the advantage being mostly due to increased comfort, which delays muscular pain. I'd estimate this benefit in 1-2"/km, with the 10k at the upper edge.
For true elites, who are muscularly prepared at the highest level, the advantage is negligible. Otherwise, we would have seen the best milers run 3:25-3:26 in 2021. Instead they kept running 3:28 as they did every year before super spikes era.