Boston Marathon - 23 minute gap between elites and wave 1 start times??

The elite field is not deep at Boston, they will end up with between 20 and 30 men running under 2:20. Using this logic a runner with PB of 2:19:34 doesn't qualify for the "elite" start and doesn't win Boston in 2:09:55 (Bill Rodgers) No reason all qualifiers sub 2:30 for men and sub three hour women can't start at the same time.

what confuses me is how they have changed their decision-making based on the quality of the field rather than the time qualifier:

I received an email after running @ the 2020 Trials moving me to the elite Boston start for 2020 which never happened then for this year's edition (and registering using that same Trials time) I was unsuccessful in gaining entry into the elite women's start.

oh well, no the end of the world. it'll just be me in a sea of men I suppose, with a few women mixed in for good measure.

It's been 10 years since Glenn Randall pulled a Glenn Randall

Yes, you are whining.

I think the good news here with the tougher OTQ women's standard is that you can tuck into a pack for basically the entire race. It can get lonely in the elite women's race & you can be left running by yourself for much of the race.

They should still be letting people like you in but at least you know you'll have a pack to run with.

There are a lot of great points made in the thread above.

My take on it...

2018 had freak weather which caused an unprecedented amount of dropouts and slow times in the small women's elite field (which had a 20-30min head start on the general masses start). Results were so slow, that multiple women from the mass start posted net times faster than top-15 women from the elite start (prize money spots). This was not an issue on the Men's side, as the men's elite field started at the same gun as the masses, but just partitioned off by 10'ish meters. This is how it always was pre-2019.

Solution: The BAA rightly agreed to award those women the same prize money they would have won had they run those times in the elite start. (granted - they had the benefit of running with packs of men to block wind, so it's not really fair, but that's another facet of the debate I won't get into).

Going forward: This was an issue that could happen again. People were mad online about the mass start women not being given the glory and recognition for finishing in the top-15 because of the separate start. They cried 'sexism', because the men didn't have this issue with their start setup.

What I (and many others) think the BAA should have done:

Option 1: Say "Hey we're sorry, but this is the way it has to be. We need to have the starts set up the way they are, because this is the best way to get the elite women ample TV coverage of their race/finish, but we promise to bite the bullet and to continue doubling out the prize money if any women from the mass start posts a net time in the top-15 like we did in this crazy weather year".

Option 2 (preferable): Increase the size of the women's elite field. Add a "sub-elite" women's field that throws an extra 50+ women that get to start 10 meters behind the pro-women's field. These are the 2:40s-2:55+/- qualifiers. They're not going to cause any issues/disruptions to the pro race. They're legitimate racers. This doesn't completely eliminate the possibility of a mass-starter beating an elite starter, but it drastically decreases the chances of that possibility.

What the BAA did: They decided to solve nothing. Instead, they simply ADDED the problem to the men's field so no one could call them sexist.

Now the men have this nonsensical separated start.

So now, in the event that this, or any future year is another freak weather year, and the elite men's field has a ton of dropouts and slow times (2018 Boston Marathon 10th place was a 2:27:50 fyi), those of us 2:18 - low2:20s mass-starters could absolutely pack up and run a slew of times that would put us in the top-15, and then we have every right to be "mad online" about this issue all over again.

Can't do Option 1, because Elites will purposely join the mass start to use male pacers and windblockers.

Option 2: if thery're not going to add any disruption to the pro race, why are they in there? So they can benefit specifically if a bunch of the pros falter? That's not a good reason to include them. 2:40-2:55 isn't an elite time, and shouldn't be in the elite field of a Major.

You have to earn your spot on the elite starting line at a major. They're racing for place; you're racing for time. You don't have a claim on the prize money when you weren't on the start line of the same race they're in. The mistake Boston made prior to 2019 wasn't in denying prize money to non-eliter women; it was giving it to non-elite men. They've solved that.

If we get to a race where so many elites drop out that you literally don't have enough elite finishers to hand out the prize money, then you'll have an argument. But until then, you're debating two different races.

I'm surprised at the huge gap. Personally, i think the first corral should start immediately or within seconds of the elite, as long as they keep it legit with only sub 2:20 or so runners in that corral. Americans love to see the underdog win or at least scrap it out with the top guns for as long as possible. I see no downside to this. If someone goes out too fast and fades, then that's on them. Elites do that, too, so what's the problem with making it a more interesting and overall competitive race?

... "until then..."

We already did have this happen to an extreme in 2018 as I mention in my reply. And I don't have numbers handy, but I'm sure someone could easily look into results and see how many 3-digit bib numbers (non-elite) have finished in the top-15 (Prize Money) over the history of the race. I'm willing to bet that it has happened a non-insignificant amount of times. A qick check on 2012 results (it was a hot year that year) shows that a mass starter finished 11th.

So I do have an argument...

And the overall point here is that this added time buffer adds no benefit, and solves no problems. It only adds unnecessary and easily avoidable issues for the sub-elite runners. I don't understand why you or anyone would be "pro-buffer" unless you just take joy in the fact it annoys the 2:18+ guys and 2:40+ girls. What benefit do you see by not letting us start in the back behind the pros?

We don't want bottles or special treatment. We just want to start with the official gun start so we have people to race with... It's such a weird, elitist take that you just posted.

The ONLY argument I'd understand would be if there was a long history of mass starters sprinting out front and knocking over the pros. Then I'd understand the reasoning for the buffer. But those clowns never really seem to cause legitimate issues to the actual race. They get their 5 seconds of fame and then fade away.

and to add to my post, and reply to this comment...

Yes, with the recent OTQ standards released, I/we obviously have the standard as a time goal, and that may be priority number 1 at the moment. But I'll be damned if you're going to tell me that a top-25 finish at Boston would be out of reach for someone shooting for 2:17. And maybe to you, top-25 at a world marathon major isn't "impressive" or whatever, but I'd be proud as hell of that.

Having us start in the masses puts us in this scenario where we have no idea what place we're actually in until results get posted. And then if it turns out I finished in the top-25 net-times, it's really not a true top-25 finish, because those guys in the elite start had no idea I was even racing them. Again, it's just adding this unnecessary layer of annoyance to the event.

I/we just want to race the people that we signed up to race against. That's it.

Not so long ago (2010 and 2011) I was in Corral 1 with a 2:52 and we all started together. A lot has changed and not for the better. But at least we are not doing a rolling start this year!

A little longer ago (1996) they had a VIP section (sub 2:30 I think). I was running mid 2:20's at the time as a master. It was nice...got to warm up inside by the start (a different building not the Korean church where the elites go) and and started right behind the rope separating the elites. They dropped the rope right after the elites were off.

No we didn't. There are at least 10 finishers in 2018 from the men's elite field.

It's not elitist. It's to provide an equal playing field for the men and women. It's the exact saame reason there are breaks between Wave 1 and Wave 2.

You have people to race with. They're your speed. You want to race with the big boys. That's different. Get faster.

If I'm in Wave 3, should I be able to move up to the front too? I just want to race the people I signed up to race against.

You're conflating your local Turkey Trot with the Bostron Marathon. If you want to be in the mix for top 25, earn your way onto the elite start line.

Another terrible take sir. There is an enormous difference between someone gunning for a sub-2:17 wanting to race elites with PBs 5-10 minutes faster than them — and someone in wave 3, who is almost certainly running purely for fun/charity wanting to race someone with a PB 2-3 hours faster than theirs.

In any race with wave starts based on time (or races with cut off times) there will always be people that complain that they 'should' be allowed into the faster wave (or allowed to officially finish) even though their time was a little too slow.

This will occur no matter where the cut off times are placed. The 4:00 marathoners would want to start with the 3:59 marathoners...

They have to set the times somewhere.

And Boston is different as the elite races are actually now totally different events. The big time gap between the elites and wave 1 emphasize this.

It makes sense to start the Elites safely ahead. But at 2:17, I don't think you should be in Corral 1. Reach out to the elite coordinator - sometimes asking is all you need to do.