Tempo runs not getting faster and I am tired of sucking

You have stagnated (temporarily). It happens to all of us. You just need to change it up. Your body needs a fresh challenge. Try some different workouts. Short intervals, long intervals. Long tempos, short tempos, tempo intervals. Stop doing the same workout you're doing (that is depressing you and getting you nowhere) and change it up. When you come back to it, there's a half decent change you're able to break through. The body needs constant change to adapt.

Cut back & recover. Focus less on numbers & more on "Effort". Everybody is different, training plans are not one size fits all. Regardless of what the coaches say find what works for you. You say your tempo runs have stagnated, have your races also?

I had times like yours back in the day. Your HM time translates to 6:10 pace. I don't think you're running your tempo runs too fast; if anything, that pace strikes me as a little too slow. But 5:45 pace would be a little too fast. I was running 10Ks back then at 5:50 pace and I ran a couple of 10-miles just under 6:00 pace.

I think you should be shooting right now for something around 6:00 pace. I'd start with three miles at that and see how it feels. If you feel as though you're slightly above threshold, I'd run those three miles as tempo intervals, one mile at a pop, with 30 seconds rest.

I'm no coach and I'll defer to the coaches if they weigh in. But I've spent almost 20 years tracking my HR data and pace and thinking about the fine lines between notched in and a little too hard. You need to push the envelope a little, but in a very attentive and calculated way.

break em up wrote:

Don't let your tempos be a mental blocker for you. There's nothing special about working out at X or Y pace. Training is meant to hit the desired energy system and adapt.

Here's my recommendation, try threshold interval workouts for a while. 6x1 mile with 1:00 rest or 3x2 mile with 2:00 rest. Go by "tempo effort". In theory these workouts should be easier than your current 4 mile tempos.

I'll bet if you do 6x1 mile one week, then 3x2 mile the next, then go back to your 4 mile tempos, you will feel much stronger and mentally fresher. I almost guarantee you will break through your plateau (which I think is mostly mental in your case).

This.

my 5k time is about yours but my half marathon is slower by 2-3 mins. I hammer medium tempos and almost all of my long days were at marathon pace. I also went too hard on easy days. I am trying something new this time around. I'm following Jack Daniels methods on paces this go around.

Time to pitch the watch and start over. Take a week or two off. Then run easy runs, 8 miles a day, no watch. Then run 3 miles all out once a week with a watch. The rest easy. Then start your tempos again. Once a week with a nice warmup. They’ll feel easy compared to your 3 mile burn once a week. Don’t try to hit a pace on anything, let your body determine the pace. Keep the rest of your runs super chill. 65mpw is nice. 65mpw with one balls out 3 miler a week and one tempo is really nice. Take it from there

I don't think you're running your tempos too fast. If it's really been a few years & you're stuck, that would surprise me. Feel like you could keep going from sub-18/sub-30/1:20 by bumping from 40 to 65 miles.

I would guess that your daily mileage could be too fast before I would tell you to slow down your tempos. What pace do you run on easy days & are your easy days actually easy? 6:15 pace is slower than half marathon pace. Feel like tempo pace takes different meanings but on shorter stuff it should be a little faster. If you're doing longer steady state stuff, 6:30-40 would be right because that's marathon pace for you. You should be able to cruise that pace for 10 miles in a long run.

Without knowing, I would advise you to slow down your easy miles if they aren't already slowed down. I would take a look at how you structure training. Are you training mostly like a half marathoner/marathoner and expecting threshold to drop? You need to improve your 5k to make gains up to the half marathon, which would bring down threshold pace in workouts. Do strides 2-3x/week after easy runs. That'll do more for you on a day you run 8:00 pace than trying to make sure every mile is sub-7.

Other tips are to break up tempos. Instead of a 4 mile tempo try 3 x 10:00 or 12:00-10:00-8:00. Do 2:00-3:00 of easy jogging. That way you handle closer to 6:00 pace for the 30:00 of work until you're ready to handle that for 30:00 straight. Then you can do threshold workouts where you get in some good volume on short rest -- 12 x 1k @ T (1:00 rest). Stuff like that might be good for you.

Mileage, but a lot of it in the grey area, won't help you improve. Work out at a variety of paces. Don't neglect speed. Run easy enough to go into workouts fresh so you can run paces that will help you get better.

If you truly want to go faster in tempos, just get a faster training partner or someone on a bike.

But looking at your times, I think it's obvious your strengths lie at longer distances. Go faster in a 20-30 min tempo shouldn't be a big concern for you.

Another thing you can do, is do some speed based focused workouts such as 200's through 500's.

Do you do any short intervals, like 300s or 400s? If you don't ever run substantially faster than tempo pace then it's always going to feel really hard.

And how often are you running tempos? They shouldn't be done every week. I cycle mile repeats (60 second recovery), 2 mile repeats (2 min recovery), and continuous tempo (3 to 10 miles depending on goal race and place in training cycle).

Are you following a training plan? Daniels 5/10k plan is pretty good for improving threshold

feefeefoofoo wrote:

Cumsiglio wrote:

You're running too fast on "tempo" runs. They are more like 95% races for you. Try cutting them back to 6:30-40 and breaking them up into intervals. Also make sure you're getting in proper track work once a week.

According to my 158 average heart rate for my 4 miles at 6:15 I think I am not running them too fast.

Heart rate is a great indicator but it is individual.

If your race performances are accurate than you are running them too fast.

Also, you are looking at it a little backwards. Your race effort and times indicate what your tempo should be and not the other way around.

I should add that you go by your CURRENT race times and not Prs

Given that you're able to hold a faster pace than your tempos for 80 minutes during a HM race, I don't think it's your Lactate Threshold (the energy system you're addressing during a tempo) that's the limiting factor.

I'd suggest working on your Vo2 Max, given that your 5k pace is only 23-25 seconds a mile faster than your HM pace.

Some specific workouts may include:

* 8 x 600m @ 2:06 w/90 seconds jog recovery

* 6 x 800m @ 2:50 w/90 seconds jog recovery

* 5 x 1k @ 3:32 w/2 minutes jog recovery

* 4 x 1200m @ 4:15 w/ 2:30 jog recovery

* 3 x 1600m @ 5:40 w/ a 5' walk recovery

All of the workout paces should be adjusted as you get faster, but all of them should be "at" or just slightly faster than current 5k race pace. If not, then you won't be working the right energy system. The jog shouldn't be a shuffle either, but also shouldn't be a float - think 'easy run' pace.

feefeefoofoo wrote:

For the past few years I've been stuck doing tempo runs between 6:10 and 6:20. I've been racing 5k's, 8k's, and half marathons. I've upped my mileage from 40 mpw to 65 mpw. I still can't run any faster and I feel like increasing my mileage is just wasting my time. What should I do? I want to eventually break 16:30 in the 5k and get to around 1:18 in the half marathon. Literally I just finished a 4 mile tempo in 6:15 average. Disappointed that it hasn't changed in 2 years. I want to tempo around 5:45. How do I get there???

PRs: 17:53 5k

8k: 29:44

Half Marathon: 1:20:42

You will improve by just cutting your longer tempo runs. You don`t need them.

What you need is mainly to better up your lactate threshold by running LT intervals instead.

If you don`t know how to do it the best way for you, just welcome to my Magic coaching and I help you out.

The paces he is running are LT paced already

Although, I agree he should break them down to like 2x2 instead of a 4 mile effort

otter wrote:

Although, I agree he should break them down to like 2x2 instead of a 4 mile effort

Yes, that was mainly what I told . We agree. :)

He should run the same LT pace in shorter segments and build up over time to a total of about 10 miles at most in one session.Then he will see fast improvement.

What are your easy days like? I had a phase like this. But when i upped my mileage, i slowed my easy days down and i finally had some breakthroughs.

feefeefoofoo wrote:

For the past few years I've been stuck doing tempo runs between 6:10 and 6:20. I've been racing 5k's, 8k's, and half marathons. I've upped my mileage from 40 mpw to 65 mpw. I still can't run any faster and I feel like increasing my mileage is just wasting my time. What should I do? I want to eventually break 16:30 in the 5k and get to around 1:18 in the half marathon. Literally I just finished a 4 mile tempo in 6:15 average. Disappointed that it hasn't changed in 2 years. I want to tempo around 5:45. How do I get there???

PRs: 17:53 5k

8k: 29:44

Half Marathon: 1:20:42

What's your 100m time?

If you can't sprint very fast it doesn't matter how many tempo runs you do.

Maybe add some 200s and 400s and some speed workouts.

egenrgjentg wrote:

Do repeats. 4-5xMile at 6:15-20 pace with 90s jog. Be very strict on the pacing. It'll feel easier than the tempo runs. Maybe too easy. Good. It should. Do this for a month, or a few, and then you'll see improvements.

High hopes wrote:

And how often are you running tempos? They shouldn't be done every week. I cycle mile repeats (60 second recovery), 2 mile repeats (2 min recovery), and continuous tempo (3 to 10 miles depending on goal race and place in training cycle).

YES.

Any combination of intervals that adds to 4-6miles (about 6-10km) is going to bring adaptation and allow you to run slightly faster/different paces.

"Tempo" workouts I have done lately:

8-10 x1k with 1:00 rest

6x1 mile with 1:30 rest

3-4 x2mile with 2:00 rest

3x3k with 3:00 rest

Classic 4-5 mile continuous tempos

Around 10-mile to HM pace generally, generally slightly quicker for the shorter intervals and slower for the long ones.

These can be either steady or progressing through the workout, somewhat different benefits around the same pace and energy systems.

No need to only do the same thing over and over. Keep things fresh and avoid getting in a rut with the pace.