Stuck at sub 18:30 for a year. How to run sub 18?

Sub 18 wrote:

40 years old with avg weekly of 60, 2 sessions 400s and tempo runs, plus a long run.

How can I lower my 5k time to sub 18?

Can you be more precise? How is the 400 interval composed in number of reps, speed and rest? How do your tempo runs look to length and speed? And at last, how long is the long run and what pace?

big daddy wrote:

IMO mile repeats at 5k pace will take too much out of you. Stick to 5x1000 for your longest 5k pace reps

Looking for more info from OP but it seems like they're not going over 400m for work @ 5k. 1k reps would be good. Nothing wrong with 4-5 x 1200m or 3-4 x 1600m. Longer reps = more rest. Would also say 6 x 1k is better than 5 x 1k. OP should start with longer rest earlier in their build -- something like 5 x 1k off of 2:00 jogs & progress to something like 6 x 1k off of 90s jogs by the end of a build.

Am not suggesting he runs 100 mpw, but I do feel adding in some longer runs would benefit while still running his current 60 mpw.

E.g Mon: 6 mile tempo

Tues: 10 miles easy on an undulating course

Wed: 5X 1000m, total distance run with recoveries and warm-up, warm-down 6 miles

Thurs: 10 miles like Tuesday

Friday: Rest

Sat: 10X 400m, total running 6 miles

Sun: 16 miles undulating at an easy pace.

Total ~ 54 miles, so actually under his current 60 miles

Interesting the term "downhill", as running downhill requires less exertion than uphill lol

All you need is Vaporflys !!! Guaranteed sub 18

GreatDane1 wrote:

I would try swapping out one of your 400 sessions for 5X 1000m repeats and aim for 3:25-3:30 per km.

That's too fast a pace for a sub 18 in my opinion.

I was doing this exact session for a sub 17 which I achieved (30, M, averaging 59 km a week for 10 weeks prior to the TT).

Unless you are running a marathon, you don't need to run 60 miles per week. So the first thing you must do is lower the mileage and get more rest.

Keep 1 tempo run, 1 workout and 1 long run per week. The rest can be easy 45-60 minute runs.

Need more wrote:

Sub 18 wrote:

40 years old with avg weekly of 60, 2 sessions 400s and tempo runs, plus a long run.

How can I lower my 5k time to sub 18?

Can you be more precise? How is the 400 interval composed in number of reps, speed and rest? How do your tempo runs look to length and speed? And at last, how long is the long run and what pace?

OP never came back. A troll thread ?

17:00min for 5km is an average of 3:24/km, so doesn't make a lot of sense to run your 1 km repeats slower than this at 3:25-3:30/km. Typically you should aim to run your 1km repeats 5-10 seconds faster than the average pace per km for the entire 5km so that the actual pace required on race day feels relatively easy.

GreatDane01 wrote:

17:00min for 5km is an average of 3:24/km, so doesn't make a lot of sense to run your 1 km repeats slower than this at 3:25-3:30/km. Typically you should aim to run your 1km repeats 5-10 seconds faster than the average pace per km for the entire 5km so that the actual pace required on race day feels relatively easy.

Except that it did the job, no?

I was pacing according to Daniels VDOT tables, which recommend doing the I pace around 3:30 min/km for my then-target.

It is about doing the bare minimum to get the desired outcome.

My race day pace (Well, TT) did feel relatively easy, and I managed to pick it up a lot on the last kilometer (3'10").

No need to hammer workouts. After all, the body recognizes effort, not splits.

jiggymeister wrote:

GreatDane01 wrote:

17:00min for 5km is an average of 3:24/km, so doesn't make a lot of sense to run your 1 km repeats slower than this at 3:25-3:30/km. Typically you should aim to run your 1km repeats 5-10 seconds faster than the average pace per km for the entire 5km so that the actual pace required on race day feels relatively easy.

Except that it did the job, no?

I was pacing according to Daniels VDOT tables, which recommend doing the I pace around 3:30 min/km for my then-target.

It is about doing the bare minimum to get the desired outcome.

My race day pace (Well, TT) did feel relatively easy, and I managed to pick it up a lot on the last kilometer (3'10").

No need to hammer workouts. After all, the body recognizes effort, not splits.

Good advice! + 1 !

Yes that's fair for you if you just wanted to run 17:00 but I would guess you may have short changed yourself and could probably have run those 1km repeats faster which would have translated to a faster 5km. It's a compliment, sounds like you could be into the mid 16s quite easily.

You're right in that I was only thinking about running a sub 17, as my TT was a progressive run rather than an all out even paced effort.

I'm targeting ~ 16:40 next month. A track race this time, should be better.

Did a 6x1000m today averaging 3:28.6 (3:18.8 on the last one).

However, I still ascribe to the idea that we should do the bare minimum, "best bang for your buck" kind of effort, mostly. It is just more sustainable.

Sub 18 wrote:

40 years old with avg weekly of 60, 2 sessions 400s and tempo runs, plus a long run.

How can I lower my 5k time to sub 18?

See if you can comfortably lose 3-5% of your bodyweight.

Arkansas beauty wrote:

jiggymeister wrote:

Except that it did the job, no?

I was pacing according to Daniels VDOT tables, which recommend doing the I pace around 3:30 min/km for my then-target.

It is about doing the bare minimum to get the desired outcome.

My race day pace (Well, TT) did feel relatively easy, and I managed to pick it up a lot on the last kilometer (3'10").

No need to hammer workouts. After all, the body recognizes effort, not splits.

Good advice! + 1 !

Depends on the purpose of the session, does it not? My understanding is that 5-8 × 1000m with 200m jog is an LT session, to be done at LT pace / tempo effort / cruise interval speed / whatever your nomenclature. So 5K pace, goal 5K pace, or faster than 5K pace would be too fast for that session.

If I understand correctly, 1000m reps at or slightly faster than 5K pace / effort are a harder effort/intensity than LT and would require 400m jog recovery. Or about equal time rec, am I correct? And this type of session probably 5000m max volume?

I'm not an expert ... Anybody who knows, please chime in on this.

Different session, different purpose, different pace, different recovery.

Sub-8 Mile wrote:

Depends on the purpose of the session, does it not? My understanding is that 5-8 × 1000m with 200m jog is an LT session.

It definitely depends on the purpose of the session.

However, 5x1000 m @ I pace w/ 400 m jog recovery, done right, is a VO2 Max session.

I would suggest running on feeling.

8x1000m with 2 min rest. Firs 1k start easy and then go faster each rep. Or 5 times a mile.

These workouts helped me a lot.