Is CV training superior to traditional VO2 max training?

Seppo Kaitenenn wrote:

This is a threshold session in disguise because lactate is rarely high and it's cleared quickly.

No. Building up lactate with high intensities is much quicker as removing it if you rest, walk or run. With a 60-90 sec rest you have not cleared much lactate at all.

Depending on interval intensity and duration you reach a certain lactate level at the end of this ON phase. Clearing it, in recovery phase, takes much longer.

Lactate is possibly not the rout cause for damaging mitochondria, It could be the high working load and also small muscle fiber damages after a hard session (theory).

Mitochondriac wrote:

otter wrote:

This is true

Really? Why?

Lactate ions aren't the enemy, nor are Hydrogen ions. The Mitochondrion has its own way of moving H+

Find a different culprit for diminished Mitochondrial density, such as reduction in training volume and/or intensity.

If it was high Lactate levels, then hill sessions or fast 400s would be the worst training you could do.

High acidic levels in the blood damage mitochondria. That’s why recovery is so important. Too many hard efforts without recovery = reduced mitochondrial density.

+1

No one is saying hills or 400s are the enemy but it depends on duration, intensity and rest, like all other phases of your training. You're not doing 8x300 w/:40 rest in your base period, are you? But you might do 10-16x300 w/300 meter jog in your base phase. The former would put your lactate at over 10. The latter may not even get you at main threshold level lactate.

I guess you have never seen this?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj5qDWMNp7s

8-15mmol = 5% damage of mitochondrial #s

Watch the Ingebristens during their speed sessions or Kalle Berglund -- 300's and 400's with a cap of 10mmol. That is during racing season. Pre peak race season they are under 8 mmol all the time. In line with Marius Bakken's recommendations from back in the day

Not seeing a contradiction here whatsoever

Ingebristens are doing 20-30x400m with :30 rest just about every week of the year. So no one is arguing with the distance; however, they are doing those 400s that elicit lactate of <3.2 mmol -- totally sustainable for year round session.

The volume of 400s and the frequency leads me to believe F Shorter was hitting the exact same system here. There's always this mythology around historical training, just think about your own. Doesn't mean it was true; and if it was true doesn't mean it was optimal. Plus, pros like Shorter/Ingebristens are also coupling this type of work with a healthy dose of easy miles.

I gave a very specific # (10.0 + mmol) to establish what i was talking about there. But feel free to interject more reflexive, vague, and dopey comments about training conversations you're clearly not following or keeping up with here.

Yes, if Hills or fast 400s are taking you above that line then they will eventually be your enemy, simple as that. Can you do Hills and 400s in a progressive and periodized way to peak at the time of the year you want to peak? Obviously. Follow the training schedules of the champions and you will see exactly that.

Jakob I is just doing a ton of LT (mostly) and is the best in the world at 1500 surely this recipe works. I dont know why more people dont do it this way

shirtboy2021 wrote:

+1

No one is saying hills or 400s are the enemy but it depends on duration, intensity and rest, like all other phases of your training. You're not doing 8x300 w/:40 rest in your base period, are you? But you might do 10-16x300 w/300 meter jog in your base phase. The former would put your lactate at over 10. The latter may not even get you at main threshold level lactate.

I guess you have never seen this?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj5qDWMNp7s

8-15mmol = 5% damage of mitochondrial #s

Watch the Ingebristens during their speed sessions or Kalle Berglund -- 300's and 400's with a cap of 10mmol. That is during racing season. Pre peak race season they are under 8 mmol all the time. In line with Marius Bakken's recommendations from back in the day

He's talking nonsense. Find a better explanation. Or look up Seb Coe's training. Because according to that video his training was impossible.

Actually, according to that video, my training was impossible too.

otter wrote:

Mitochondriac wrote:

Really? Why?

Lactate ions aren't the enemy, nor are Hydrogen ions. The Mitochondrion has its own way of moving H+

Find a different culprit for diminished Mitochondrial density, such as reduction in training volume and/or intensity.

If it was high Lactate levels, then hill sessions or fast 400s would be the worst training you could do.

High acidic levels in the blood damage mitochondria. That’s why recovery is so important. Too many hard efforts without recovery = reduced mitochondrial density.

Really? High acidic levels in the blood??? You sure about that? Blood is slightly alkaline.

Obviously too much of anything is bad, but don't use pretend biochemistry to explain why.

Seppo Kaitenenn wrote:

I think it is. Traditional long intervals at 3k-5k pace are just too taxing for average people to recover from. If you want to work out at these paces, stick to 400s and 600s. CV reps should be between 2 and 6 minutes.

Treshold training is superior to both. As in actual treshold, and especially double treshold. And by actual treshold I mean 3.5 or below in lactate.

CV /10k pace training is specific aerobic support for 5k racing.

You don't listen very well, do you?

Pretend biochemistry? Your comments are somehow getting dopier

Is a solution of Hydrogen Ions acidic or alkaline?

When do you have a situation where you have an abundance of Hydrogen Ions vis a vis running?

I believe this is in Coe's book as well

Yes, your training, perfect segway into talking about yourself

For curiosity, how many global medals or appearances do you have exactly?

You know the more I thought about it, I probably should have said 20 x 400m at "current to goal 5km pace". 3km race pace in a little aggressive for that high volume of repeat 400ms...although I think you can get away with not inducing too high levels of lactate with a 1:30+ rest if you have a substantial aerobic base in the months leading into it (read: high mileage, long runs, LT workout etc). So 20 x 400m at 5km to 5km goal pace you can certainly do with a shorter rest like 45-60 seconds in a well trained distance runner (running high volume) and it would not induce high lactate levels. And it's good Economy Training near a Velocity of Vo2max (pace). To those talking about Coe (I read that book in middle school by the way...and now would certainly to trust everything Coe says) and 10mmol concentrations as well as the H+ ion attaching to Lactate and dropping blood PH: The concern with big anaerobic contributions (i.e. running say 6-8 x 400m at goal 1500m to 800m pace with a controlled 2-3min rest or super hard high intensity Hill Reps with limited rest) is of course the high lactate levels and blood PH drop, but also the fact that mentally you are putting yourself in a lot of pain and your form may be getting sloppy and breaking down because of a loss of contraction. Generally that kind of " all-out buffering capacity" is going to be required to induce eventually to peak as a middle distance runner (800m-3km etc)., but usually they can practice that a lot in early season races (400m-800m-1500m) etc. and it is for getting close to peaking IMO. Daniels could call that specific "R-pace" Rep Work because it is specific maybe to a certain pace (1500m race pace, 800m race pace) etc. But generally early season the purpose of those workouts would be Specific Running Economy (for form and pace training) and they'd have enough rest (maybe even 2-4min...and start with shorter reps like 150m-300m) to intentionally not induce high lactate levels too early in the season. All in all, though the most "bang for your buck" for a lot of the year for most distance runners is going to be some sort of "Threshold Training" (Marathon Pace long Tempo Runs down to 2km repeats or even 1km repeats at 15km-10km race pace even). For the the intervals with a short rest (usually 1km-2km repeats) you certainly could bridge the intensity spectrum from true LT to CV and even approach Vo2max near the end of a workout (if even for less <1 min).

5K pace is the standard.

Do whatever you can, at 5K pace, and you'll improve.

I improved a lot when i did these two things (on low mileage surprisingly)

1) I did long run for the first time 14 milers at slowish pace in the am's with no food in me. (depletion runs) these were so difficult for me to do - i hated them, but got results almost immediately...probably because i had always ran too fast and not far enough on previous runs.

2) varying quality steady states...my usual steady state or tempo was 5 miles at 5:30+ pace...but soon after starting the long runs, i found these 5 milers got a lot easier and fasters...not every time....but there was a sudden drop in the pace/effort for me. over time i turned these into 8-10 milers.

today i tend to do well off longer runs 14-17 (currently) at moderate paces 7:10-8:00. I'll do as many of these back-to-back as i can. in the past 45 days i think i have done about 30 of them. with an occassional day off and track session of 16X400 (short rest - about :30) i am not terrible fast on these but they feel good.

shirtboy2021 wrote:

You don't listen very well, do you?

Pretend biochemistry? Your comments are somehow getting dopier

Is a solution of Hydrogen Ions acidic or alkaline?

When do you have a situation where you have an abundance of Hydrogen Ions vis a vis running?

You have a problem with reading comprehension.

shirtboy2021 wrote:

I believe this is in Coe's book as well

Yes, your training, perfect segway into talking about yourself

For curiosity, how many global medals or appearances do you have exactly?

I was responding to the pretentiousness of the explanation in the video and the ridiculous claims.

Look at Coe's performances in the Olympics 1984 which according to the claims in the video would be impossible.

Also my own training and racing completely refutes these claims.

You seem a bit desperate for credibility.

Good of you Sage to change your claim of running 20 x 400m at 3 k pace to now suggested 5 k race pace . Now you are talking in DANCAN terms when it comes to this workout. :) 3k pace is too fast and gives no more bucks for the effort than 5 k race pace . This special workout has nothing to do to improving lactate threshold as long as you don`t run it at slower pace . The main purpose with the 20 x 400m at 5 k race pace is to make the energy process more effective at this pace by repeating the workout often ( mostly weekly year round). What also contributes to the reduced energy consumption at the pace is the continuously improved biomechanics. As long as one keeps the reps relatively short ( 200- 600m ) it will just contribute to improve the runner week by week, month by month, year by year , until the runners optimum performances will be reached.In chatting with Ingebrigtsen`s Norwegian physiologist L-I Tjelta he just confirmed to me this is the way to look at it.

Mitochondriac wrote:

shirtboy2021 wrote:

I believe this is in Coe's book as well

Yes, your training, perfect segway into talking about yourself

For curiosity, how many global medals or appearances do you have exactly?

I was responding to the pretentiousness of the explanation in the video and the ridiculous claims.

Look at Coe's performances in the Olympics 1984 which according to the claims in the video would be impossible.

Also my own training and racing completely refutes these claims.

You seem a bit desperate for credibility.

If you listen to the video Scott explains that the damage to the mitochondria is not as big of a factor for an 800 meter runner or even a miler (although it a little more important) than someone specializing in the 5000 meter race.

Scott Christensen doesn’t need to be desperate for credibility. If you are not familiar with him then look him up. I have had a few conversations with him about this. If you want to flush his life’s work down the toilet in your hunch you are welcome to do so. I choose to learn.

It’s about finding balances specific to the type of runner and also the event.

It gets complicated as depending on fiber type as some don’t have the ability to produce a high amount of measurable lactate. Others clear it faster because they are predominantly slow twitch and have more mitochondrial density to clear it.

I can go on but I am guessing that really doesn’t matter.