Easy days easy - a dangerous mindset?

Pugwash wrote:

I remember reading some article here by a 28 minute 10000m runner. It was titled something like why I sucked in college. It was about running slow on easy days. Wonder what happened to the author. Was a great article.

Slow is a relative concept.The "secret" is to find the aerob pace that gives your individual best result for your bucks.

The most effective!

gretchen weiners wrote:

You get the same aerobic benefit going 8:30/mi as you would 7:30/mi.

Not true Gretchen!

Doesn't it stand to reason that a slower runner would have a slower easy pace? People can take it too far, like a 3 hr. marathoner I know who runs 12 minute pace on long runs, but your examples all sound pretty appropriate.

I know going hard all the time can work for some people, but you can't force it.

SUPERIOR COACH J.S 1 wrote:

Pugwash wrote:

I remember reading some article here by a 28 minute 10000m runner. It was titled something like why I sucked in college. It was about running slow on easy days. Wonder what happened to the author. Was a great article.

Slow is a relative concept.The "secret" is to find the aerob pace that gives your individual best result for your bucks.

The most effective!

Moron, he is talking about wejo's article.

Bella cosa wrote:

SUPERIOR COACH J.S 1 wrote:

Slow is a relative concept.The "secret" is to find the aerob pace that gives your individual best result for your bucks.

The most effective!

Moron, he is talking about wejo's article.

I of course knew that! ))

SUPERIOR COACH J.S 1 wrote:

Bella cosa wrote:

Moron, he is talking about wejo's article.

I of course knew that! ))

Of course you didn't.

You didn't even know your athlete ran a short half marathon in 2017 until it was pointed out to you here in 2021.

British Guy wrote:

I've always been the type to START easy on every easy day, but many runs will end at

a) sub-6 pace, and I feel that this works well for me personally and

b) I know this is what people like Kipchoge do too.

Have others got experience with people who run REALLY easy all the time?

a) I guess you think to isolated. A training unit has to consider the past and the future and has to have a purpose.

b) No. Kipchoges training before Berlin was released here and he runs his 30km and 40km runs below Aerobic Threshold (on average) . I studied that in detail. A lot of wrong rumors here.

I just PR'd by eight minutes in the marathon and was going back in my strava and what struck me were how SLOW many of my easy runs were. I worked off the assumption that I avefaged about 7 min/mile but in reality there were many more runs above 7 then below 7.

Easy runs can be tough for a lot of runners to get right. Easy runs should be slow enough to enable recovery from workouts but not so slow in that heart rate becomes too low for aerobic benefit and that running form gets sloppy. However, the optimal easy pace varies greatly among runners, even of the same ability level. In particular, I notice that fast-twich runners tend to have a slower easy pace than runners who are more endurance oriented. The training period also plays a role in how fast runners do their easy runs. During the base period when no workouts are done, doing easy runs faster is helpful to bring about training benefit. On the other hand, when you are in a training period doing hard workouts, easy runs need to be done slower to allow for ample recovery.

Pugwash wrote:

I remember reading some article here by a 28 minute 10000m runner. It was titled something like why I sucked in college. It was about running slow on easy days. Wonder what happened to the author. Was a great article.

Wejo's Why I sucked in College should be required reading for newbies.

truth be told. wrote:

Pugwash wrote:

I remember reading some article here by a 28 minute 10000m runner. It was titled something like why I sucked in college. It was about running slow on easy days. Wonder what happened to the author. Was a great article.

Wejo's Why I sucked in College should be required reading for newbies.

https://www.letsrun.com/news/2006/09/wejo-speaks-why-i-sucked-in-college/

Not that stupid article again. Wejo started to run insane mileage (up to 170 mpw) at altitude at a very slow pace. Briefly got fast and then had his career cut short by injuries. Not exactly a model for good training.

I distinguish between easy runs and recovery runs. Recovery runs are 30-40 mins, really slow, maybe 8 minute pace or above. Easy runs are 70 mins anywhere between 7 and 7:30 pace. For context, my marathon pace is around 6:15.

Recovery runs are just about movement, easy runs are for aerobic development.

This is an interesting topic that may have different answers for different people.

first, to start, as other have said, easy runs are not the same as recovery runs. recovery runs need to be slow..whatever your version of slow is. no disputing that. but there is a wide variance in how slow many runners take their "EASY" runs.

Farah and Rupp are reputed to run most of their miles around 1:20 to 1:30 slower than 5k pace, maybe something like 45 seconds slower than marathon pace.

Lydiard easy runs seemed to be recommended at similar fairly brisk paces for an easy day.

So if you are a 15 minute guy, roughly 4:50 pace, should you be working at 6:15 to 6:30 or so for many of your miles? Perhaps you could work based off of percentages...Farah and Rupp are around 33% slower on easy runs compared to 5k pace.

So this would point to a 14 minute guy being close to 6. 15 minute guy being around 6:30. An 18:30 guy being at 8:00. A 17:00 minute guy would be near 7:20. etc. etc. etc. we can all do rough math here.

I have always been a big advocate of easy days easy, but then again I have noticed some of my girls who run their easy runs "too hard" to keep up with a guy they like, end up finishing the year quite strong. I have also seen the opposite happen. So again, I just don't know.

I always say, we are all an experiment of one. there isn't a perfect formula. some of the greatest coaches have had plenty of diligent athletes fail to perform at just the right time. I should say...EVERY great coach has had this dilemma.

i guess it should also be pointed out that what is beneficial for a moment, or even a whole season, is not necessarily the path to greater long term success.

3:49 miler who train here in local area his Monday wednesday, Friday and Sunday runs are in the 4min to 4:15k pace range. The other days look bloody hard.

I think this is a really good post. I do want to point out that both Farrah and Rupp are slow twitch machines with borderline inhuman efficiency. A marathon runner will be able to turn up easy mileage a lot easier than a middle distance guy. I know 6:20-6:30 miles are most definitely not in my “easy miles range”. I’d call that steady for me and it’s what I’ll typically do on a hardish effort long run.

Fatigue really does play a role too as others have mentioned. Today I did 7 miles easy and was suffering at 7:35 pace. Had to slow it down to 7:50s for the last couple of miles because I was feeling unwell. This week is a bit of a functional overreach week for me, as I’m making the transition to pure 800m training now. Did 10x50m-100m-150m at 400m start effort on Wednesday, and a fartlek resulting in an average pace of 6:15 per mile over 11 miles on Thursday, then lifting after. If that’s not a perfect recipe for destroyed legs idk what is. Typically I’d see a pace 30-40 seconds a mile faster at the heart rate and perceived effort I had today.

well,, wrote:

truth be told. wrote:

Wejo's Why I sucked in College should be required reading for newbies.

https://www.letsrun.com/news/2006/09/wejo-speaks-why-i-sucked-in-college/

Not that stupid article again. Wejo started to run insane mileage (up to 170 mpw) at altitude at a very slow pace. Briefly got fast and then had his career cut short by injuries. Not exactly a model for good training.

To be fair I was a hobby jogger who had my career cut short by injuries. I'll take the "briefly got fast" if the alternative is "never got fast".

My mindset around easy running has evolved considerably over the years. When I was a dumb high schoolers I was afraid to run under 7 ever because I did not have faith in the process and was insecure about the irrational risk of running slow making me less fit.

Then in college I started taking sauce off my easy runs for the sole purpose of recovery and keeping my legs fresh.

Years later I’ve returned to running, but in conjunction with serious cycling training. Cycling culture isn’t encumbered with the dogma that plagues most sub-elite running coaches/teams and leans more heavily into using physiology to inform running.

From my research into cycling training I learned about how exercising at a lower intensity (especially for long durations) actually sparks adaptations that higher intensity exercise does not precipitate (or at least as well). So in addition to improved recovery, low intensity running also improves fat metabolism more efficiently (fat is an essentially unlimited source of fuel), it improves lactate clearance because training slow twitch muscle fibers improves their ability to metabolism lactate produced by fast muscle fibers (via lactate shuttling, and if you run long enough your body will improve its ability to recruit non-slow twitch fibers during longer efforts.

Once I understood the benefits I started taking my slow runs way slower. Also I turned some of progressive long runs to longer but slower runs. The results have been drastic. I’ve been improving my fitness more rapidly than I ever had before despite taking years off. I was able to jump into interval training off mostly base and run minutes faster than my average run pace feeling fine. I firmly believe the slower running set me up better for quality work better than struggling to hit a certain pace every run would have.

So those are my two cents. Obviously everyone is different and responds to stimuli so there’s no one size fit all. Further, physiology research famously has its limitations (lol n = 6, lol no women, lol college kids) and clearly I’m not the first runner to lean into these findings. Also notice I didn’t really mention pace. “Easy” intensity (or zone 1 in literature or z2 in 5 zone model) only loosely correlates to pace and not even perfectly to HR. I guess what I’m getting at is I’ve personally been having relative success dropping the dogma and following methods that have data backing them up.

Lexel, I must have missed the post on Kipchoge's pre Berlin training. I've done a search, but it is not coming up. Would someone be prepared to share it, please?