If the top 400M RUNNERS in the world, all competed IN A MILE, and motivated to go all out, what would the WINNING TIME be?

Hurno wrote:

silvery gold wrote:

Just remember Bolt ran half laps in 19s and as a junior ran 45s whole laps, but could barely hold 80s for two laps. Yes, a few years past his prime, but he actually trained for it.

Speed means nothing when it comes to running 4x past what you are used to. So if 400m runnes work on endurance, they could excel and run 4:20. But if they don’t, wouldn’t be shocking to throw up 5+min.

"speed means nothing" That's some extreme hyperbole...

Bolt is an extreme outlier, and therefore a terrible example of an average world class 400m runner(he's not even a 400m runner).

With only 400m training, maybe some tune-up workouts or practice races if you want, don't be surprised to see times from 4:20 to as slow as 5:20. Everyone running 44.5 and under will be different based off genetics.

It also seems like you're being purposefully misleading citing Bolt's 2:40 800m, where he's apparently both out of shape and not trying his best.

He's what he's said about his own 800m speed, keep in mind he's likely an outlier on the slower end of the spectrum, he's very fast twitch.

"Ahead of the race, Bolt said his fastest time over 800m during training was 2:05 and claimed that with spikes on, he could dip under two minutes. Based on that information, his fans had high expectations going into the race, but they did not get the result they hoped for."

Think of it like this. Elite 400m runners are doing sessions like 10 x 200 in 28 with 2 min recovery. Some will do some cross country type runs of up to 2-3 miles. Or diagonals. Or some vVO2max sessions. Or 4 x 400 at 800 speed.

So they’d be better at the end of GPP when they do most of these sessions.

I don’t think it’s fair to include Korir. We should mean your standard elite 400 guys who are 200-400 types - WVN, James, Norman, Cherry etc.

So I’d expect them to be able to run 1.50-1.55 for 800. Then double + 30-40 seconds for their 1500 time (elite 1500 guys are double) and add another 20 seconds for the mile. So 4.30-4.50 is my guess.

I’d guess 4:00 - 4:20 without specific training, but wouldn’t be surprised if a couple could sneak under 4:00 if built more like a mid d runner than a sprinter. Those are the guys that are FASTER than the world class milers, but simply choose the shorter distance because they can still compete at it.

Karma Police wrote:

Think of it like this. Elite 400m runners are doing sessions like 10 x 200 in 28 with 2 min recovery. Some will do some cross country type runs of up to 2-3 miles. Or diagonals. Or some vVO2max sessions. Or 4 x 400 at 800 speed.

So they’d be better at the end of GPP when they do most of these sessions.

I don’t think it’s fair to include Korir. We should mean your standard elite 400 guys who are 200-400 types - WVN, James, Norman, Cherry etc.

So I’d expect them to be able to run 1.50-1.55 for 800. Then double + 30-40 seconds for their 1500 time (elite 1500 guys are double) and add another 20 seconds for the mile. So 4.30-4.50 is my guess.

That's reasonable.

I agree, genetics and type of GPP training will come into play. And we should be talking 200-400 runners.

Sub 4 for sure. If there is mint on the line then brazier/vasquez/Manny would break 4

It could be interesting to look at some of the Decathlon performers, who run both 400m and 1500m.

Karma Police wrote:

Think of it like this. Elite 400m runners are doing sessions like 10 x 200 in 28 with 2 min recovery. Some will do some cross country type runs of up to 2-3 miles. Or diagonals. Or some vVO2max sessions. Or 4 x 400 at 800 speed.

So they’d be better at the end of GPP when they do most of these sessions.

I don’t think it’s fair to include Korir. We should mean your standard elite 400 guys who are 200-400 types - WVN, James, Norman, Cherry etc.

So I’d expect them to be able to run 1.50-1.55 for 800. Then double + 30-40 seconds for their 1500 time (elite 1500 guys are double) and add another 20 seconds for the mile. So 4.30-4.50 is my guess.

Because at least two of the F.A.T. sub-44.50 400m men clearly would have been sub-4:15 one mile men in their prime, I am including Alberto Juantorena, men who poke holes in your theory, you do not want to include them. I wonder if this thread was started by 4:05 to 4:15 one milers with 56.xx or 57.xx 400m personal best. I feel like some on this thread have an agenda. You cannot have a hypothesis, two men E. Korir and Alberto Juantorena do not fit your hypothesis then throw those two men out. You made up typical workouts for elite 400m men, 10 x 200m in 28 seconds does not seem so elite to me. At some colleges & universities, no one goes out for XC. At some schools, 400m & 400mH hurdle athletes are almost forced to participate in XC. There is no one type of 400m training. You lumped Kirani James into same category as Wade van Niekerk. Not the same. K. James is a 400m specialist. In U.S., if 14 to 16 year old race 400m in 50.xx to 52.xx, often those 400m athletes will stick to 400m. In Kenya, 800m culture obviously currently is a stronger culture than 400m culture. More likely than not, Kenyan 14 to 16 year olds in 50.xx to 52.xx 400m range, train for 800m. You cannot penalize E. Korir because he was willing to train with 800m athletes. Do you penalize Butch Reynolds for his willingness to participate in XC? Note: Butch Reynolds has 600 yard world best.

I mean yes, but I'd be much more interested in seeing Fred Kerley run a 4:20 than I'd be interested in seeing Emmanuel Korir run a 3:58

4:00 to 4:45 is a very broad range.

silvery gold wrote:

Just remember Bolt ran half laps in 19s and as a junior ran 45s whole laps, but could barely hold 80s for two laps. Yes, a few years past his prime, but he actually trained for it.

You can't be serious. It was for a commercial where Carmax told him roughly how fast to run because that's how long it takes to sign up on their website and get an offer on your car.

swamprunner wrote:

4:00 to 4:45 is a very broad range.

The actual range is likely even broader.

For the sake of this argument we'll say the top 400 runners consist of the top 12 400m men this year in peak 400m shape, the race is rabbited to go as fast as they can, the field goes with the rabbit at it occurs on BU's indoor track so weather is not a factor and the track is very fast. The field would include:

(the time in parenthesis is 2021 season best and i only looked at their world athletics page so i may have missed some results)

1. Randolph Ross (43.85) has no times for anything longer than 1:04.88 indoor 500m in 2018

2. Steven Gardner (43.85) has never raced over 400

3. Kirani James (43.88) has never raced over 400

4. Anthon Jose Zambrano (43.93) has never raced over 400

5. Michael Cherry (44.03) Ran 1:54 in 2012 when he was 17

6. Michael Norman (44.07) has never raced over 400

7. Noah Williams (44.30) Ran 1:54 in 2019

8. Bryce Deadmon (44.44) has never raced over 400

9. Isaac Makwala (44.47) has never raced over 400

10. Liemarvin Bonevacia (44.48) 1:19.11 for 600 meters in 2017

11. Trevor Stewart (44.52) 1:58 in 2018

12. Wayde Van Niekerk (44.56) Has never raced over 400

Ultimately this field has very little experience with distances beyond 1 lap but they are still world class runners and being in tip top 400 shape does require some aerobic fitness. The few 800s run by this group were not when they were in world class shape so i wouldnt read too deep into those. I think this group can run 65s and feel pretty good they come through three laps in 3:15ish and someone (no clue who, probably one of the older guys) kicks in a sub 60 last lap and they go around 4:15ish.

silvery gold wrote:

Just remember Bolt ran half laps in 19s and as a junior ran 45s whole laps, but could barely hold 80s for two laps. Yes, a few years past his prime, but he actually trained for it.

This has to be bait. Theres no way youre seriously using the car insurance ad where bolt is clearly running deliberately slow at the behest of his sponsor for a publicity stunt,

Theres no way youre seriously using THAT as a data point. You cannot possibly be this dumb.

Olympic decathlon athletes would be a pretty good predictor. Damian Warner is a 46.x quarter miler and has run 4:24 for the 1500m. He could probably go just under 4:50 in the mile.

Karsten Warholm could run 3:40! (runs 5:10)

Somebody posted this video on a similar thread recently. Granted, the Superstars competition doesn't necessarily show these guys at their finest (except for James Lofton who does a nice job), but it's interesting to see just how unimpressive a stud like Carl Lewis can look at 800m. It's not just that Lewis's time of 2:16 or whatever is unimpressive, but also the way he doesn't even give the impression that he could run much faster if he "really tried". He doesn't go out fast, yet he still has no kick. I don't think there is a sub-1:50 lurking in him no matter what the incentive.

Granted, Lewis (and Gault) are not 400m runners. But I think it does at least hint at how much physiology plays a part. Sure, you think that a 19.76 guy like Lewis can "jog" through 200 in 25 seconds, or even 30 seconds - but he just doesn't. For many, it seems that the better of a sprinter they are, the worse of a miler they are likely to be.

I think if you took a bunch of 43-45-second 400m guys, a few (as others have suggested) would run a pretty good mile (4:20-ish?), and many would be lucky to break 6.

I didn't include people like Korir and Juantorena because this thread is surely aimed at working out how well a standard elite 400 runner would go over a mile.

It's bleedin obvious that Korir and Juantorena would be better, competing in 800s as well. They do more aerobic training. But they aren't the point of the thread.

The rest of your post is a bit hard to follow - paragraphs are your friend.

600yd/600m man wrote:

400m mile time wrote:

For the sake of argument, guys who only focus on the 400m. What could they do in a mile if they gave it their all

You cannot give yourself a For the Sake of Argument exemption. I consider F.A.T. sub-44.50 400m world class. Because someone is also world class at 800m, there is your answer, about 4:10 mile. You cannot start playing games by stating only 400m guys who log less than 25 miles per week. Bolt is not needed for this discussion. Bolt was never a world class 400m man.

Yes he can. It's his thread. He is clarifying what he referred to.

I'm not sure what your point is anyway. 400-800 guys would run a faster mile than sprinter-400 types? Well done, Einstein.

snowdays wrote:

swamprunner wrote:

4:00 to 4:45 is a very broad range.

The actual range is likely even broader.

If you took the Olympic 400 meter field two weeks after the Olympics, not including anyone who runs the 800, you'd have one or two walking before the mile finish line.