A runner can NEVER be in consideration of greatest athlete off all time

The only athlete that is probably better than Bolt is Randy Moss. The guy could have gone pro in 3 sports and had world class sprint speed.

What’s Bolt’s LJ?

I’d put King Carl over him.

penn wrote:

No actual skill is involved whatsoever.

Huh? It's definitely true that top players like Ronaldo or Gretzky would have both exceptional ability and exceptional skill of playing their game while top runners like Bolt or Bekele have exceptional ability first and foremost and "skill" is secondary to that.

However doesn't the word 'athletics' refer specifically to those kid of sports that measure one's raw ability – seconds to cover the distance, meters to jump, kilograms to lift? And there are other sports where you 'score', be it games or figure skating, and raw ability without skill won't get you far in those.

Usain Bolt has been quite well compensated. Your argument is therefore invalidated.

You americans have to realise that many of the names in that list will mean little to the rest of the world. Which is why this question would be impossible to answer anyway.

Alex Honnold isn't even one of the very best climbers out there. What he does is dangerous but climbers like Adam Ondra or Tommy Caldwell are much more skilled on a technical level.

n9 wrote:

penn wrote:

No actual skill is involved whatsoever.

Huh? It's definitely true that top players like Ronaldo or Gretzky would have both exceptional ability and exceptional skill of playing their game while top runners like Bolt or Bekele have exceptional ability first and foremost and "skill" is secondary to that.

However doesn't the word 'athletics' refer specifically to those kid of sports that measure one's raw ability – seconds to cover the distance, meters to jump, kilograms to lift? And there are other sports where you 'score', be it games or figure skating, and raw ability without skill won't get you far in those.

Ding ding ding!

This exactly the argument that I present in my thread for why Athletics has the best athletes and it's not particularly close.

penn wrote:

I’d love to hear someone even try to make an argument for one.

Ronaldo, MJ , Gretzky , Nolan Ryan, Babe Ruth, Patrick Mahomes, Lewis Hamilton, Roger Federer, Tiger and etc..

I don’t believe I can can be convinced someone that just runs can be considered an all time great athlete.

No actual skill is involved whatsoever. In today’s world the market determines your value and runners aren’t in the same stratosphere as other athletes in terms of compensation.

If what runners were doing was an amazing skill or feat they would be rewarded accordingly. And they are not.

I can play this two ways: 1)Pitchers aren't athletes because all they do is throw the ball. There have been some great pitchers who couldn't do a sit-up (Bartolo Colon). Any athlete playing a team sport is, to a large degree, reliant on the team that has been assembled around them. Ronaldo looked great this weekend scoring twice for Man U, but just look at his teammates. MJ played with an all-time great in Scottie Pippen. Mahomes has Travis Kelcy and Tyreek Hill. Lewis Hamilton is a racecar driver. Please. Tiger? Gold requires intelligence and skill, but hardly requires athleticism. Ya walk all over the place or ride the cart. Federer is an interesting one. Great combination of athleticism and skill required.

As for track. Running fast isn't athletic ? Jumping high, throwing far? Isn't that athleticism in it's purest form. And, it's one person reliant on just themselves.

I'd argue Track athletes are the BEST examples of athletes and absolutely one can argue for the likes of Usain Bolt, Bob Hayes, Jim Thorpe as the greatest athletes of all time.

It all comes back to my argument that success in most sports is determined mainly by mastery of skills particular to the sport rather than by athleticisim.

Athletics is the exception. Because the goal in our sport is to quantify athleticism and, for the most part, minimize the skill aspect so the most athletic individuals can rise to the top.

penn wrote:

I’d love to hear someone even try to make an argument for one.

Ronaldo, MJ , Gretzky , Nolan Ryan, Babe Ruth, Patrick Mahomes, Lewis Hamilton, Roger Federer, Tiger and etc..

.

Well you might want to start by listing some athletes. None of the above are even considered athletes. They are all ball players, not athletes. I would easily rate Ashton Eaton better than any you mention.

Kevin Meyer is the Greatest athlete in the world currently, but Damian Warner maybe taking the title soon. There is no comparison for what Decathletes do, that any of your list even make the top 1000.

There are plenty of runners/jumpers/throwers that can make a claim to the title, Carl Lewis, Javier Sotomeyer, Sergey Bubka, Usian Bolt, Michael Johnson, Paavo Nurmi, Emil Zatopek, This list could go one. I bet I would reach 1000 before any of your list makes mine.

As soccer, not much athletic skill in that, anyone can kick a ball, but how many can run 110H under 14 seconds, None on your list. Baseball again not much athletic skills in that, even a blind squirrel finds a nut (anyone can catch throw or hit) but how many can jump 7' high. (again none of your list.) Really golf do I have to explain no athletic skill in that sport??? but how many can throw the jav over 200'? (again none on your list.)

Should I keep going? Athletic skills are those done on the Track and Field all other skills are just minor derivatives.

penn wrote:

...

No actual skill is involved whatsoever. In today’s world the market determines your value and runners aren’t in the same stratosphere as other athletes in terms of compensation.

If what runners were doing was an amazing skill or feat they would be rewarded accordingly. And they are not.

I don't really think of athleticism as requiring skill. It's not a learned craft.

Agree with the premise that the profile of the sport matters but you're only thinking about how many people watch the sport on TV, not the number who participate and are otherwise invested. So here's my take:

Pelé>MJ>Usain Bolt>every other person you listed

Pelé is perhaps history's greatest player in indisputably the world's biggest sport--has to be near the top of any list. Michael Jordan dominated one of the world's biggest and still fastest growing sports and is perhaps the most iconic athlete ever. Usain Bolt was the greatest champion at sprinting--an event virtually every human has done (unlike all the other sports).

As for the other athletes on your list, Ronaldo has never won a world cup and Gretzky, Tiger, Mahomes play niche sports globally (far more people follow field hockey globally than ice hockey, to put things into perspective). If you are willing to set aside accusations of doping, Barry Bonds was better than Babe Ruth and, regardless, baseball is kinda niche-ish. And I don't even know who Lewis Hamilton is.

As for rewards, the market doesn't reward merit. Often, as in the case of golf, it rewards those who play well at sports that rich people like. Top polo players make a very good living, after all, but no one is talking about them as the greatest athletes ever.

To expand on my point about Usain Bolt, every single person who is a great sprinter gets discovered, unlike with other sports. For example, all the best 400 meter runners on my high school team were discovered by the soccer coach who could easily spot their talent just by watching a few drills. Same story for Usain Bolt, if I recall correctly, and many many other runners.

I'm sure the OP will reconsider his position after the Berlin thon in 2 weeks

penn wrote:

I’d love to hear someone even try to make an argument for one.

Ronaldo, MJ , Gretzky , Nolan Ryan, Babe Ruth, Patrick Mahomes, Lewis Hamilton, Roger Federer, Tiger and etc..

I

I thought it was Secretariat followed by Johnny Unitas.

It's been fun, but there is just too much negative energy here and too many new a$$holes who post bull$hit and lots of great people who used to post all the time who have left or gone underground. I'm out. Life is too short. I'll be in kona. Hope to see some of you there. Paulo knows how to find me.

Track is the only sport where you can prove you are the best. You can compete against the best in the world and compare marks over time.

Football and basketball are just games, not true sports. They depend on teammates and incidental objects (balls). They have arbitrary rules that require referees to judge them as they are "playing". That's a game, not a true sport.

A guy like Matthew Centrowitz can claim he was the best in the world one year, and he did it on his own. Michael Jordan had teammates who helped him in every game he ever played. Not many people would argue that Centrowitz is a better athlete that Jordan, but at least he can prove it. People can and do argue for hours about who the best basketball and football players are, but nobody can argue who was the best 1,500 meter runner in the world in 2016, it was proven.

You lost me at Matt Centrowitz being the best 1500m runner in 2016. Thats cap.

That argument would have to consider which sports fan you're discussing it with. But Jesse Owen's would be a great argument considering he angered the nazi's with his performance. He earned a silver star in the Army. And paved the way. To allow more blacks to represent the US during an extremely race shunting era. And did they ever recover his stolen gold medals?