mental aspect

potato_salad wrote:

Belief in oneself is a choice.

Tell your runner to stop being a little b and CHOOSE to believe in himself.

Does not happen like that, but you probably already knew that.

Finnished at 344 wrote:

Mate, the self-sabotaging thoughts: Most everyone has them. And words have IMMENSE power. Help your kid take a step back and look at the words he's using in his inner dialogue. Help him to pretend momentarily that he's a script writer. What would be some of the words he'd like to change? How would he change those words? How would those new words make him feel? It's an under the radar way of changing his thoughts, hence his feelings, hence his actions, hence his results.

Thanks. We finally get an answer that hints at a solution. I have told him that he needs to find a way to tell those thoughts that they are wrong, and it was working during track. However, after the summer of not racing, they crept back in.

Go to Spotify and look up “running on purpose” podcast. Then listen to the espisode called Never F***ng Quit. It addresses strategies to defeat negative feedback loops.

Over my head? wrote:

You have it backwards. He puts the pressure on himself. He struggles when passed by others, and starts questioning his own abilities. His dad says he has always been like this. This is his sixth year of competitive running. He is the third of four boys, and the older ones always passed down the criticism. He is trying to overcome their harsh words, but they just overwhelm him when competing. He can run as many miles as any other kid on the team, and beat them back, but racing has him stumped.

Mentality in racing should be practiced in practice. There are a lot of strategies for improving mental performance--there's a whole genre of books to fill that category.

It sounds like he needs to find a way to establish a positive feedback loop. Identify what he can control. Practice self-scanning (what parts of his body/form are doing well).

Remind him that getting passed and passing others has no physiological impact on performance--but we all know that forward momentum leads to a better result. Help him establish his own feedback loop separate from his competitors.

Finnished at 344 wrote:

Mate, the self-sabotaging thoughts: Most everyone has them. And words have IMMENSE power. Help your kid take a step back and look at the words he's using in his inner dialogue. Help him to pretend momentarily that he's a script writer. What would be some of the words he'd like to change? How would he change those words? How would those new words make him feel? It's an under the radar way of changing his thoughts, hence his feelings, hence his actions, hence his results.

This is similar to one NLP approach. It might work. Many runners have mantras that they repeat when running or when the race gets tough. I think Molly Seidel mentioned that she does a mantra.

Something else that might help would be to develop a pre-race routine. I found that having a routine helped reduce my nerves before a big race.

I would approach this challenge a bit differently. I would adjust the race strategy. I would encourage the kid to hold back and run the first half of the race very controlled... almmost too slow for his levels... and then at the half way mark BAAM, start racing then... start moving up... confidence will flow naturally this way... the runner will feel strong and relaxed in the first half and will be passing people in the second half.

A good pre-race strategy is often neglected in running. Just like in life, a good strategy gives us a game plan and helps with confidence.

Good luck.

Over my head? wrote:

How do you get a runner to believe in himself, instead of suffering from negative self-talk?

I don't really believe in the mental aspect of running. Either the training is right or it is not. If someone is prepared to race they will be able to handle it fine. There is an individualistic component of running due to different muscle fibers. Someone who has more fast twitch muscle fibers will be better at the mid distance events between 800-5k and then someone who is slow twitch will run better 5k and beyond. I still believe in mileage over speed and spending the time getting a strong base. For me though as a fast-twitch type it meant that I could expect I wasn't get to be able to match some of my slow-twitch peers training long tempos especially on trails but I could expect to be more explosive on the track and be able to handle intervals a lot better. For more aerobic types of work I preferred more fartlek on trails rather than just go out and run 8 miles of tempo. The good slow-twitch runners I know love going out for long 6-10 mile tempos. The other point I would make is that it is important to stick to the 80/20 rule. Runners shouldn't be trying to max out everyday. Save the hard days for workouts or races. A lot of the time it comes down to coaching especially in high school. Coaches always take credit for someone when they succeed but are slow to take credit for the slew of bodies they have ruined over the years. One way to tell is to look at runners at the end of the season and see how much they have improved. If consistently year after year they finish worse than they started that would be a good sign that it is the coach.

shocked777 wrote:

I would approach this challenge a bit differently. I would adjust the race strategy. I would encourage the kid to hold back and run the first half of the race very controlled... almmost too slow for his levels... and then at the half way mark BAAM, start racing then... start moving up... confidence will flow naturally this way... the runner will feel strong and relaxed in the first half and will be passing people in the second half.

A good pre-race strategy is often neglected in running. Just like in life, a good strategy gives us a game plan and helps with confidence.

Good luck.

I appreciate that. I suggested that to him last year, and he said he can't race that way. I told him I was like that in HS, and never got over the hump. I told him my best race was one where I was in last place at the mile. He looked at me like I was from another planet. I will try this one again.

There is a lot in there, so I will try to respond to as much as I can.

First, the mental aspect is real. This kid has said on many occasions, "I got in my own head>" as his response after a bad performance.

I think he would excel at the 8K, since he is a strong runner at longer distances.

I told him on so many occasions about easy runs, to no avail. I addressed it again last week, and it looked as if the light may have come on with this aspect.

As to the aspect of the coach, the kids I coach usually improve over the course of the season, including this one. It's just that he underperforms what his training says he should be able to do. The only time their fastest race is early on is when someone measures a course wrong or it is a fast one like some of the flat ones you see in some areas.

Over my head? wrote:

Bump. One would think with all these experts here, someone would give a good answer.

Well.......the runner build confidence in the training sessions that are carried out. If the coach knows what training

times correspond to in race times it`s no problem to mentally strengthen the runner what to expect .....

The great Carlos Lopes ones got the question how he prepares mentally and he just told his training gave him mentally strength... " What I do in training I know I can repeat in the races " .

Would you like to do an experiment? Ask your kid if he would like to test being coached by me online and we will see

if I can find out what`s missing him. I don`t think it`s complicated to improve him. I `ll do it free of charge. Just give me a year with him ( if he agree of course) and we will see if I can make a magical transformation case.

I have seen some runners who never listen. They always train to hard and often end up injured with stress fractures.

When he does a workout force him to stick to the times you give him or he doesn't get to race. Make sure he has paces for each run since he doesn't listen well. Normal pace for a most high school runners I would think be between 6:30 and 7:30 pace. If he is a good slow-twitch runner it is ok to allow them on a longer race to pick up the pace a little in the last couple of miles because the penalty is lower.

Strategically, in the race I would hold them back in the first mile (5k) -- maybe start at a tempo speed. After the 1st mile start to move up and pick people off. Then the last mile is finishing hard, pushing the pace and trying to drop people. Pace the first half and race the second. Allow him to go faster as he improves and gains confidence. He shouldn't have a goal beyond his current PR. The goal should be just to improve that PR a little each time. Having said that -- (maybe obvious if you are a coach) there won't be a PR every race and sometimes the most important part learning to race people and not worry about the time. The important part is having the strong base (lots of hills too) to back it up.

Sometimes you just can't win and it is better to focus your attention on those who can listen. I imagine if he listened to your instructions he would do better.

As a middle school athlete I would get very nervous before races and didn't perform to the best of my ability, and was very inconsistent. However I always had coaches, parents, and friends who supported me, and I understand that this kid might not have it all the same. Eventually with more training I learned to be more confident in my abilities and I am now a low 17 minute 5k runner. That's one thing that gave me confidence before a race, was knowing that I had good training. But honestly everyone works differently, and he obviously needs something to restore his confidence. I think the most important thing that I learned was that you just need to have fun and enjoy the experience. Tell your athlete to just not worry about his next race, just have fun! At the end of the day, even as you get more competitive, you learn there is so much more than just performing well. Enjoy the experience, and best of luck!

Also it's very important to think positively before and during your run. Your mental state affects your physical state so much more than people think. You will cramp up and run so much slower the more negative your thoughts are.

I had a similar problem in high school.

I was the strongest runner on the team, but fell apart in races and underperformed. My coach would tell me that my workouts predicted 5k times literally minutes lower than I achieved. (My teammates in similar shape showed this to be true.)

I desperately wanted to do well. And I got trapped in negative thought loops. It affected everything -- even my running form changed drastically when racing.

I had the same problem in other sports and with important tests. So yes, it can affect a lot in life.

I eventually got my nerves under control in tests. But never in competition.

I've been that kid wrote:

I had a similar problem in high school.

I was the strongest runner on the team, but fell apart in races and underperformed. My coach would tell me that my workouts predicted 5k times literally minutes lower than I achieved. (My teammates in similar shape showed this to be true.)

I desperately wanted to do well. And I got trapped in negative thought loops. It affected everything -- even my running form changed drastically when racing.

I had the same problem in other sports and with important tests. So yes, it can affect a lot in life.

I eventually got my nerves under control in tests. But never in competition.

How did you fix it in the other areas?

I spoke with him today and he agreed to try a new race strategy this weekend.

Over my head? wrote:

I've been that kid wrote:

I had a similar problem in high school.

I was the strongest runner on the team, but fell apart in races and underperformed. My coach would tell me that my workouts predicted 5k times literally minutes lower than I achieved. (My teammates in similar shape showed this to be true.)

I desperately wanted to do well. And I got trapped in negative thought loops. It affected everything -- even my running form changed drastically when racing.

I had the same problem in other sports and with important tests. So yes, it can affect a lot in life.

I eventually got my nerves under control in tests. But never in competition.

How did you fix it in the other areas?

Honestly, hard to say. But I'll venture a guess in this long, indulgent post. (Maybe it will even help.)

With tests, the more confidence I built up, the easier I could calm down and focus on the task (instead of meta-worrying about how the test was going). I got that confidence by consistently doing well on tests. It was a virtuous cycle. I think I got into it by doing well on low stakes tests. When I relapsed, it was in new situations where I felt insecure.

But building confidence can be tricky. In sports, even low stakes races always got the better of me. Nailing good workouts didn't do it for me either. And seeing teammates in similar shape do great things didn't do it for me either.

If I could go back, I'd focus on small, unimportant races and really bring to mind how insignificant they are. Then experiment with different strategies in those races. Hopefully, I'd accumulate some small wins and get into a virtuous cycle.

Instead, I had a vicious cycle:

Desperately want to do well → put pressure on myself → get overwhelmed → fall apart → beat myself up → vow to do better next time → repeat

I think I had internalized too many sports movies and hard work mantras. Instead, I needed to calm the f*** down, try different things, and learn from failures without self-loathing.

Good luck!

Over my head? wrote:

I spoke with him today and he agreed to try a new race strategy this weekend.

It’s not a race strategy issue. It’s an expectation issue. The kid expects himself to do better than he actually does. He falls apart when he doesn’t meet expectations.

He will form new expectations with the new strategy and likely fall apart because the new strategy won’t miraculously work.

Have him plan for where he is, not where he “should be”. Have him visualize his typical race and including the pain and getting passed and make a plan to overcome the tough parts.