Heart rate question

Absolutely not Joe. They may have very similar percentages of their heart rates maximums or percentages of heart rate reserves (HRmax-HRresting), but they wouldn't have very similar heart rates.

Because of differences in maximum heart rates, RunnerA may have a HR while running just a moderate workout that is higher than RunnerB's maximum heart rate. Like if RunnerA had a maximum HR in the 200s and RunnerB had a maximum HR in the 170s. You don't need a text to tell you that--you just need a bit of experience in seeing the variety of maximal heart rates out there.

I hope that helps.

Joe,

I'm not plugged into any formal text book, but I have plenty of anecdotal info from me and other runners I know who track their HR during training and races.

My HRmax is about 170. I've seen close to that at the end of a 5k. In a recent 3000, I saw 165 or 166. In a couple of 1500s earlier this year it only reached about 162. By contrast, I've seen it near 166 and 162 at the end of PR 10k and 5 mile efforts, respectively.

Buddies I train with or correspond with who have different HRmaxes will see similar % of HRmax for similar distances, but if a guy's HRmax is 210, then he'll likely be over 200 at the end of most races shorter than HM distance.

If I ever see over 200, it means:

a. the HRM is broke, or

b. my heart just exploded

So the short answer to your original question, is, no.

Had some myself wrote:

Absolutely not Joe. They may have very similar percentages of their heart rates maximums or percentages of heart rate reserves (HRmax-HRresting), but they wouldn't have very similar heart rates.

Because of differences in maximum heart rates, RunnerA may have a HR while running just a moderate workout that is higher than RunnerB's maximum heart rate. Like if RunnerA had a maximum HR in the 200s and RunnerB had a maximum HR in the 170s. You don't need a text to tell you that--you just need a bit of experience in seeing the variety of maximal heart rates out there.

I hope that helps.

So the % of max HR would be the same or similar for these 3 kids running their 1500 PR's in 3:58, but not necessarily their actual heart rate?

Let me know.

Joe

Yeah, I think they would be pretty much in the same neighborhood %-wise. Might also depend a bit on what their training was like to get there.

If RunnerX is a 2:18 marathoner who's never done a lick of speed work running that 3:58 PR he might be at a different %MaxHR than a 1:55 800m guy who's just trained and trained and trained himself to take on masssive lactate loads running that 3:58 PR, but I'm really talking out of my butt here.

That's true, going from a Marathon to 1500m the runner will not be able to reach his or her true max HR, unless there was a lot of VO2Max work in the runner's training. With specific 1500m training, the runner's max HR will increase by about 5-10 beats.

Joe-- are you coaching using HRMs now?

If their maximum hr's are very similar then it's completely possible that the hr's achieved during racing will be similar. One other thing, I'm not aware of much research done on teenagers (you said 'kids', so let's assume for a sec that they are under 19). Does anyone know if hr data on kids is similar to adults? I believe I've read that the aerobic system takes quite a while to mature and am wondering if this could fudge the data?

Joe,

No. A few years ago me and a clubmate both ran 14:20 in the same 5k to set PBs. My pulse was over 190 at the end and his was still under 170. At the time my max was about 200 and his was much lower than mine.

Cooter, M.D. wrote:

Joe-- are you coaching using HRMs now?

No. I'm curious for research I'm doing concerning cardiac output.

Really just need a link to a credible source or possibly a chapter in a book, something that can tell me if the % of max heart rate is the same for athletes in the same event if they are running at their best for that distance.

For instance, when my buddy Brent ran his 2:19:26 in 1991 and I ran 2:19:40 in 1995, would it be reasonable to assume we both ran at appoximately the same percentage of our max heart rate during those races? He ran 3:49 and 14:17 while I ran 3:50 and 14:23, would it be safe to assume that when we ran our 5k PR's when were running at the same % of max HR and we were also running at the same % of max HR for our 1500 PR's.

If someone has a source I can reference, that would be great.

Thanks.

Joe

I don't think even their %HR would be the same. A lot of it would have to do with how the race unfolded. If the race goes out very fast and the guy is hanging on for dear life at the end then his HR is going to equal his max. If the race goes out slower or is run with even splits it's more likely the HR will be lower at the end (say 95% of max). I also think that training will affect what the hr will do. Two runners could be trained very differently for the same event (high milage aerobic guy vs. the low milage speed guy) and they will have very different percentages. An example of this would be the difference in HR% that Bekele (low end of his range) is at the end of his race vs. an 800m runner working at the high end of his range.

Most likely it would depend upon aerobic development. The better developed, the lower the hr at any given pace.

For the 1500m % of max heart rate by the end should be roughly identical for all runners in the race. Because the 1500m is run at faster than VO2max (Max HR) pace and lasts longer than 3 minutes, VO2max and therefore max HR will be reached during the 1500m if it is run hard.

For the marathon, conditioning level will make quite a bit of difference. The fitter athlete will be able race at a higher %Max HR and a higher %Max VO2 during the race. The 5k is somewhere in between.

One subtle difference to be aware of is that %Max HR doesn't have an exact correlation with %MaxVO2. A middle distance runner running at 75% max HR may be at 55% max VO2 while a marathoner may be at 70% max HR.

Phoenix, when you say:

"For the 1500m % of max heart rate by the end should be roughly identical for all runners in the race. Because the 1500m is run at faster than VO2max (Max HR) pace and lasts longer than 3 minutes, VO2max and therefore max HR will be reached during the 1500m if it is run hard."

you are assuming that all runners are equally well trained, equally well rested before the race, and giving an equal effort.

It seems there would be subtle differences depending on what each one's specialties were. I can't imagine an 800/1500 guy having the same stress reaction a marathoner would to a 1500m race; the MD guy might be at a higher heart rate early in the race, but it would plateau and remain constant while the LD runner would rise constantly and peak near the end of the race. Again, the actual numbers and percentages would be close enough to, excepting math geeks, write it off as being the same.

it depends on the training, a marathon runner won't get nearer than 95 % his max in a 1500 unless he has trained for the event.

I'll bet, there is not always much correlation between Heartrate and percentage of heartrate among similar speed runners.

I train/consult and train alongside many people who use monitors. Heartrates are all over the place and so are the percentages.

Example, I have a low max HR(180) compared to many of my younger training mates (many in 190's)

A couple of those kids are nearly identical in racing performance to me, some of them despite having higher max heart rates race at a HR that is nearly identical to mine. I am going to guess that there are many reasons for this such as how we individually deal with heat, or how fit we are. I am always pretty fit and have been able to run at a very high percentage of my low VO2 max. I am pretty sure that this is reflected in my ability to sustain a very high heart rate percentage of max.

The flip side of this is that there are people who can run the same speed as me as but they may not be anywhere near their vo2max or hearrate max because of fitness or genetic limitation.

I am sure you see my point. There are just too many other variables involved for heartrate to be relied on for any precision of training or racing.

but....... wrote:

Phoenix, when you say:

"For the 1500m % of max heart rate by the end should be roughly identical for all runners in the race. Because the 1500m is run at faster than VO2max (Max HR) pace and lasts longer than 3 minutes, VO2max and therefore max HR will be reached during the 1500m if it is run hard."

you are assuming that all runners are equally well trained, equally well rested before the race, and giving an equal effort.

No, my assumption is included in my last sentence, ". . . max HR will be reached during the 1500m if it is run hard."

If someone can't reach VO2max during a 1500m RACE then they aren't capable of reaching it period. Are you saying that marathon training keeps someone from being able to reach VO2max?

Yes I am saying that. Marathon training is Marathon training and 1500m training is 1500m training. You don't run a 1500 PR and a Marathon PR in the same week.

mplatt wrote:I am sure you see my point. There are just too many other variables involved for heartrate to be relied on for any precision of training or racing.